Warning lights????

[scottg]

Just wondering if anyone has had the same warning light sequence I have on my recently purchased 93 NSX auto.

From cold the car is fine all all lights on the dash are off. After about 5 minutes of driving the handbrake warning light and rear brake light warning lights illumintae and then when you next press the brake pedal the TCS and ALB light also come on (it looks like Christmas on the daskh by this time as you can imagine).
Kaz has kindly made suggestions but anything techinical is beyond me so whenh it was in to be MOT'd (so I could register it in the UK having come back from Ireland) I asked my local garage to see if they could find the fault. They are good guys but did not find any fault codes that directed them to the source, they changed the rear bulbs and cleaned and lubricated the connectors at the rear lights but again after 5 mins of driving they came back on.

Has anyone had this same issue on their car?

[Sudesh]

So the bulbs have been changed and I assume all work fine? And the lighting sequence works as it should on the tail lights?

And the guys you used, we're able to read the fault codes but nothing came up?

[scottg]

I believe this is the case sudesh

QUOTE=Sudesh;96928]So the bulbs have been changed and I assume all work fine? And the lighting sequence works as it should on the tail lights?

And the guys you used, we're able to read the fault codes but nothing came up?[/QUOTE]

[Sudesh]

So no codes, very strange.

Without seeing the car and having a check round myself, it can be difficult to trace especially if there is an electrical issue that's causing the faults. I remember having a car [different make] that done similar and it turned out to have been the alternator starting to go. Battery was poor too.

Relays, wiring sensors etc would have to be checked and if your not really technically minded it can be more difficult lol

I don't think the car being cold is anything to do with it, almost reads like the car resets itself when you park up, then when you drive, after 5 mins it picks up the faults again.

Are you sure your guys read the the faults correctly? Did you watch to see how they did it?

You could also try doing a reset, then watch to see how long it takes the faults to appear.

This link will give you an idea on how to do the reset, remember you fuse box is on the opposite side as your car is RHD

http://itisfresh.com/how-to-reset-ecu-acura-nsx.html

[scottg]

Thanks Sudesh,

I will run through your suggestions with Rob at the garage as he is my neighbour and very keen to help resolve the issue if he can. He did mentoin a small electical box which is by each rear light cluster that he thinks could be related to it but I have yet to see what he is talking about, must look at it over the weekend with him

Kind Regards

Scott


So no codes, very strange.

Without seeing the car and having a check round myself, it can be difficult to trace especially if there is an electrical issue that's causing the faults. I remember having a car [different make] that done similar and it turned out to have been the alternator starting to go. Battery was poor too.

Relays, wiring sensors etc would have to be checked and if your not really technically minded it can be more difficult lol

I don't think the car being cold is anything to do with it, almost reads like the car resets itself when you park up, then when you drive, after 5 mins it picks up the faults again.

Are you sure your guys read the the faults correctly? Did you watch to see how they did it?

You could also try doing a reset, then watch to see how long it takes the faults to appear.

This link will give you an idea on how to do the reset, remember you fuse box is on the opposite side as your car is RHD

http://itisfresh.com/how-to-reset-ecu-acura-nsx.html

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

Hi, Scott.
Additional information for you.

Based on your signature section, your NSX seems to be 2001 model.
If that is the case, then you have the latest ABS module (Bosch style one body solution).


With this ABS, you can’t erase the error code without following the specific procedure that involves the IG key, SCS terminal, brake pedal and timing.

Please note that removing the fuse or disconnecting the battery won’t erase the error code from the LATEST ABS.


Therefore, if you saw the ABS warning light but couldn’t read the error code by shorting the SCS terminal, then either you didn’t short the SCS terminal properly or the warning light was triggered by other reasons such as electrical issues.

For your reference, there has been several reports of ‘BRAKE LAMP’ warning light being triggered, RPM/tacho dropping out, etc caused by the circuit board failure at the dash gauge but it will show up at random timing and not like the specific timing such as 'after about 5min of driving' or 'when you next press the brake pedal'.


If there was no error code stored on the latest ABS module and the SCS terminal was shorted properly, then after turning the IG key to On position, the ABS light will turn On for 2sec, then stays Off for 3.6sec and then it will stay On continuously.

If the ABS light stays Off after the initial light On for 2sec, then you haven’t shorted the SCS terminal properly.



The small box at each tail light assy is the current sensing box for the brake light.
It is very sensitive so even just using the different spec wattage or any modifications may trigger the warning light.
Also, using LED brake light bulb will trigger it unless the electrical circuit was modified.

As Sudesh mentioned, you may have multiple issues including the electrical wiring related because although the parking brake light acts as the brake fluid level warning, it doesn’t need the brake pedal signal to trigger the warning.

Make sure your battery is healthy and battery terminal connections secured and cleaned.

Any extra information will help in supporting you.

Hope you will find the cause of issues eventually.

Kaz

[scottg]

Hi Kaz,

Thank you for your guidance.

The car is a 1993 UK auto (must update my signature).

The garage that MOT'd the car locally was going to enquire if the current sensing box is available as a seperate part to the light cluster as they suggested we could try changing these if they are a low cost item (I did say unlikely as it is an NSX).

I note your comment about the battery and Sudesh also mentioned this. The battery on the car is not a Honda item it is a Halfords one I think and the previous owner did say that he has had to recharge it in the past when the car has been left for some time. Any suggestions on the best one to use as a replacement as it may be worth changing as a starting point?

Kind Regards

Scott

[TheSebringOne]

Kaz has mentioned about getting new battery from Honda, they are reasonably priced, but think
they gone up a bit now.

[Sudesh]

Just for your info, your is a 1991 auto, it was very later registered but is infact a 1991 model.

As for battery, just buy from Honda as the other guys mentioned, very good prices on these.


Hi Kaz,

Thank you for your guidance.

The car is a 1993 UK auto (must update my signature).

The garage that MOT'd the car locally was going to enquire if the current sensing box is available as a seperate part to the light cluster as they suggested we could try changing these if they are a low cost item (I did say unlikely as it is an NSX).

I note your comment about the battery and Sudesh also mentioned this. The battery on the car is not a Honda item it is a Halfords one I think and the previous owner did say that he has had to recharge it in the past when the car has been left for some time. Any suggestions on the best one to use as a replacement as it may be worth changing as a starting point?

Kind Regards

Scott

[scottg]

Thanks Sudesh just spoken to Honda and the battery is about£55 so will start with this

UOTE=Sudesh;96985]Just for your info, your is a 1991 auto, it was very later registered but is infact a 1991 model.

As for battery, just buy from Honda as the other guys mentioned, very good prices on these.[/QUOTE]

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

Hi, Scott.

The info that TheSebringOne mentioned was here;
http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/entry.php?733-Eng-Refresh-Stage-1-LMA-02

At that time, I was told that the parts no was superseded and the price went up to just over GBP100.
However, it seems that Honda found the price issue in their system so now it is back to about GBP66 inc.VAT even using the latest parts no. so good news for us.

At that time, even the Lings Honda website was showing the superseded one at GBP103.19 inc.VAT but now it’s down to GBP66.29 so I’m glad my local Honda people honoured the original quoted price of about GBP65.


Any way, I should have read your OP more carefully.
You clearly wrote that your NSX is 93 (or 91, according to Sudesh) AT in your OP.

Please note that for AT, the battery spec is different from the MT model.
Again, the part no. is superseded now and it’s 31500-SP0-031HE at this stage.
The price is the same as the MT one and GBP55+VAT=about GBP66.


Based on the latest year model info, your NSX is equipped with classic ABS.

Unlike the latest upgraded ABS, disconnecting the battery or removing the ABS2,3 fuse inside the fuse box will erase the error code stored at the ABS controller on your model.
This will also erase the TCS error code on your year model.


However, after reading your OP carefully, it seems that your car is fine when it is cold and I presume you have no starting issue.

So, not sure of the battery or battery connection issue.
Still, if the previous owner had problem with it, best to replace it now before the winter.

My understanding is that the warning lights are only triggered after 5min of driving and then at the first brake pedal input after that.
Is this almost 100% consistent or more like 30% of the time when it triggers the warning light?
I'm just curious that you don't get the TCS and ABS light for the first 5min of driving as I'm quite sure you will be using the brake during that period.
Also, do you get the warning light if you keep the car stationally for 5min or so?


While the engine is running, the ACG is providing the required electronics power around the car unless you are consuming heavy current load and asking the battery to compensate the lack of power from the ACG.

Otherwise, the battery will be in charge cycle or almost acting as mockup load for the IC reg.
You should be able to get some idea on what the voltage like when the issue happens through your volt meter on the dash.


Hope your friend will be able to get further info or even solve the issue for you.

Kaz

[scottg]

Thanks Kaz,

I have ordered the battery for an Auto and with vat £66.

I have run the car stationary for about 5 mins and the handbrake warning light and rear brake warning lights came on but not the ALB or TCS, took for the car a spin around the block on after a couple of minutes and 3 or 4 applications of the brake pedal the lights came back. Went home removed the 20 amp fuse for the ALB and re started the car, the handbrake,brake light warning lamp came on again but no others, drove the same circuit and again at the same point the others came back on. There was no drop in voltage charge showing about 16 on the meter still.
Went back to my garage and noticed the rear brake lights themselves were still on when i got out of the car and the ignition was off and key removed. Got back in the car and pumped the pedal a few times and they went out, must be a sticky switch I imagine, could this be linked?

Kind Regards

Scott


Hi, Scott.

The info that TheSebringOne mentioned was here;
http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/entry.php?733-Eng-Refresh-Stage-1-LMA-02

At that time, I was told that the parts no was superseded and the price went up to just over GBP100.
However, it seems that Honda found the price issue in their system so now it is back to about GBP66 inc.VAT even using the latest parts no. so good news for us.

At that time, even the Lings Honda website was showing the superseded one at GBP103.19 inc.VAT but now it’s down to GBP66.29 so I’m glad my local Honda people honoured the original quoted price of about GBP65.


Any way, I should have read your OP more carefully.
You clearly wrote that your NSX is 93 (or 91, according to Sudesh) AT in your OP.

Please note that for AT, the battery spec is different from the MT model.
Again, the part no. is superseded now and it’s 31500-SP0-031HE at this stage.
The price is the same as the MT one and GBP55+VAT=about GBP66.


Based on the latest year model info, your NSX is equipped with classic ABS.

Unlike the latest upgraded ABS, disconnecting the battery or removing the ABS2,3 fuse inside the fuse box will erase the error code stored at the ABS controller on your model.
This will also erase the TCS error code on your year model.


However, after reading your OP carefully, it seems that your car is fine when it is cold and I presume you have no starting issue.

So, not sure of the battery or battery connection issue.
Still, if the previous owner had problem with it, best to replace it now before the winter.

My understanding is that the warning lights are only triggered after 5min of driving and then at the first brake pedal input after that.
Is this almost 100% consistent or more like 30% of the time when it triggers the warning light?
I'm just curious that you don't get the TCS and ABS light for the first 5min of driving as I'm quite sure you will be using the brake during that period.
Also, do you get the warning light if you keep the car stationally for 5min or so?


While the engine is running, the ACG is providing the required electronics power around the car unless you are consuming heavy current load and asking the battery to compensate the lack of power from the ACG.

Otherwise, the battery will be in charge cycle or almost acting as mockup load for the IC reg.
You should be able to get some idea on what the voltage like when the issue happens through your volt meter on the dash.


Hope your friend will be able to get further info or even solve the issue for you.

Kaz

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

Hi, Scott.

Interesting story about the brake lights staying On even without touching the brake pedal.

There is a possibility of sticky switch but most of the time, it is the plastic/rubber like blue grommet at the pedal ‘saddle’ getting bruised or even fallen off.
It’s located not directly above the brake pedal but more towards the upper left side.

It is possible that the continuous brake light was the cause of triggering the ‘BRAKE LAMP’ warning light but I don’t know how it can trigger the parking brake warning unless you have very low brake fluid level.

One scenario for the brake lamp warning is as follows;
Brake light stays on. -> Light bulb being cooked and gets hot. -> Increase of resistance. -> Eventually, it will hit the threshold of the current flow detecting module at the tail light. -> BRAKE LAMP warning light triggered.


As you can re-create the warning light issue without driving the car, just try it with and without keeping the brake light continuously On.



ABS and TCS warning lights seemed to be caused by the wheel speed sensor but I hope you or your friend can give another try for reading the error codes.
If you still can’t read the code, I would just look at the wiring diagram and just force the SCS terminal at the controller connector to GND before turning the IG switch to ON position.

Kaz

[scottg]

Hi Kaz,

I will check the grommet tomorrow when I am hone (working today I am afraid).
I collected the nmew battery this morning from Honda whilst driving past and will fit that tomorrow, looks like you have to remove the spare wheel carrier to do this?
I hope to get Rob to have another look at the car over the next week or so and will forward to him all your suggestions that he can check out.

Thanks Again

Scott


Hi, Scott.

Interesting story about the brake lights staying On even without touching the brake pedal.

There is a possibility of sticky switch but most of the time, it is the plastic/rubber like blue grommet at the pedal ‘saddle’ getting bruised or even fallen off.
It’s located not directly above the brake pedal but more towards the upper left side.

It is possible that the continuous brake light was the cause of triggering the ‘BRAKE LAMP’ warning light but I don’t know how it can trigger the parking brake warning unless you have very low brake fluid level.

One scenario for the brake lamp warning is as follows;
Brake light stays on. -> Light bulb being cooked and gets hot. -> Increase of resistance. -> Eventually, it will hit the threshold of the current flow detecting module at the tail light. -> BRAKE LAMP warning light triggered.


As you can re-create the warning light issue without driving the car, just try it with and without keeping the brake light continuously On.



ABS and TCS warning lights seemed to be caused by the wheel speed sensor but I hope you or your friend can give another try for reading the error codes.
If you still can’t read the code, I would just look at the wiring diagram and just force the SCS terminal at the controller connector to GND before turning the IG switch to ON position.

Kaz

[scottg]

Finally this week I did the sensible thing and arranged for an auto electrician to come over and see if he could find the cause of my annoying warning light issue.
He arrived at ten this morning and was with me all day but I am delighted to say his persistence and determination paid off. Silly as it seems now it was all down to an earthing fault.
If anyone in the south of England needs an auto electrician Richard has just gone out on his own and he is very keen to build his business. He also only charged me for 5 hours as he felt that was fair and he loved the car.
pm me if you would like his contact details.

[Sudesh]

Finally this week I did the sensible thing and arranged for an auto electrician to come over and see if he could find the cause of my annoying warning light issue.
He arrived at ten this morning and was with me all day but I am delighted to say his persistence and determination paid off. Silly as it seems now it was all down to an earthing fault.
If anyone in the south of England needs an auto electrician Richard has just gone out on his own and he is very keen to build his business. He also only charged me for 5 hours as he felt that was fair and he loved the car.
pm me if you would like his contact details.


Good to see you got it sorted Scott. Sometimes this is the only option especially with electrical issues. I mentioned this at the very start as trying to diagnose problems like these can be teadious. I received another NSX in today, has an electrical issue and lights on the dash also, but I'm fairly positive I know what it is already from just a quick look today.

Just wish people would bring these NSXs to me during the summer so I can work out in the Sun and top up the tan lol

[scottg]

I am afraid to say my joy was short lived as the lights have come back on. When we first tested the car we drove for 4 or 5 miles with no issues but after the spell of bad weather I took the car out again at the weekend and the lights came back on. I have the auto electrician coming back again later tonight to see if the erathing issue he had thought had sorted it out has come lose or something.

[scottg]

The auto electrician spent three hours last night going back over the car and discovered that if he unplugged the multiplug for the rear loom that comes through from the engine compartment and then plugs it back in the lights then take longer to come back on when test driving. In effect what was activated by a few pushes or the brake pedal now takes a 10 minutes drive with numerous brake pedal applications to activate. If you then stop the car and re start the lights reactivate within a few pushes of the pedal unless you break and remake the connection at the multiplug.
From a novice viewpoint this would point at an issue with this connect bit it is clean so any other ideas?

[Nick Graves]

A lot of S2000s have had issues (WSH) because of corrosion in the equivalent loom plug in the front bulkhead.

It's quite a costly replace and some have had to.

I can only suggest you give it a thorough clean with contact cleaner & maybe WD40 & see if that fixes it first.

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

Hi, Scott.

For this kind of issue, it is recommended to take the possibility of multiple issues into consideration and also take systematically approach.
Otherwise, you are going to confuse yourself.


1. In your post #12, you mentioned that you can trigger the hand brake light and ‘brake lamp’ warning at the same time by just starting the engine for about 5min without moving the car and at that point, the ALB and TCS lights are off.

2. The brake light was continuously On even without touching the brake pedal at some point.

3. The ALB and TCS lights came on only after driving the car and after the hand brake light and brake lamp warning came On while driving or after 5mn warming up the engine without moving and then started driving.

4. Then, the auto electrician found GND issue and it seemed to fix the issue for a short distance but now it came back.



First of all, I’ll leave the ALB and TCS issue for the time being.
For some reason, you seemed to be not able to read the error code but if the hand brake light was on while driving regardless of the reason, it will trigger the ALB and TCS lights any way.

There is a possibility of capacitor leakage inside the dash gauge that can trigger the false warning.
In Japan, already several owners experienced this issue and it tends to trigger the brake lamp warning, dead gauge, etc.
The circuit board for the original models are no longer avaialbe from Honda so we had to repair it for the owners.


The most important thing is, are there any changes in the way the warning lights come On after fix #4?
You could be chasing new issue(s) introduced after making some changes on the car.


After #4 (fixed floating GND issue), is #1 still the case?

I’m assuming that you have released the hand brake but in about 5min after starting the engine, the hand brake light will come On even when the hand brake is still in the released position.
Have you touched on the brake pedal during this 5min period to keep the car stationally or for any other reasons?

In order to trigger the ‘brake lamp’ warning light, the warning detection circuit has to see some current passing through the brake light system at least once.
Otherwise, it can’t detect the dead bulb.

In other words, even if you on purposely removed the brake light bulbs from the car, it won’t trigger the ‘brake lamp’ warning until you have pressed the brake pedal at least once.

There is a way to disable the brake lamp failure detection circuit for testing purpose only but I’m not going to post it for safety reason.

Hand brake switch and brake fluid level sensor are very simple mechanism and as you can re-create the hand brake light issue without moving the car, you just need to find where the line is pulled down to GND.


How is #2 situation?
Does it still stay continuously On or come On briefly during this 5min period after starting the engine?


Any photo showing the repaired GND described in #4?


I’m not sure which connector you are referring to in your last post #18. Any photo?


I noticed that you have posted the same on NSX Prime so hope you will get further info from there as well.


Not easy without having access to the car and diagnosing this kind of issue over the web as it could take long hours yet it could be just a simple solution......
I may wait before I post again until I get further detail........

Kaz

[scottg]

Hi, Scott.

For this kind of issue, it is recommended to take the possibility of multiple issues into consideration and also take systematically approach.
Otherwise, you are going to confuse yourself.


1. In your post #12, you mentioned that you can trigger the hand brake light and ‘brake lamp’ warning at the same time by just starting the engine for about 5min without moving the car and at that point, the ALB and TCS lights are off.

2. The brake light was continuously On even without touching the brake pedal at some point.

3. The ALB and TCS lights came on only after driving the car and after the hand brake light and brake lamp warning came On while driving or after 5mn warming up the engine without moving and then started driving.

4. Then, the auto electrician found GND issue and it seemed to fix the issue for a short distance but now it came back.



First of all, I’ll leave the ALB and TCS issue for the time being.
For some reason, you seemed to be not able to read the error code but if the hand brake light was on while driving regardless of the reason, it will trigger the ALB and TCS lights any way.

There is a possibility of capacitor leakage inside the dash gauge that can trigger the false warning.
In Japan, already several owners experienced this issue and it tends to trigger the brake lamp warning, dead gauge, etc.
The circuit board for the original models are no longer avaialbe from Honda so we had to repair it for the owners.


The most important thing is, are there any changes in the way the warning lights come On after fix #4?
You could be chasing new issue(s) introduced after making some changes on the car.


After #4 (fixed floating GND issue), is #1 still the case?

I’m assuming that you have released the hand brake but in about 5min after starting the engine, the hand brake light will come On even when the hand brake is still in the released position.
Have you touched on the brake pedal during this 5min period to keep the car stationally or for any other reasons?

In order to trigger the ‘brake lamp’ warning light, the warning detection circuit has to see some current passing through the brake light system at least once.
Otherwise, it can’t detect the dead bulb.

In other words, even if you on purposely removed the brake light bulbs from the car, it won’t trigger the ‘brake lamp’ warning until you have pressed the brake pedal at least once.

There is a way to disable the brake lamp failure detection circuit for testing purpose only but I’m not going to post it for safety reason.

Hand brake switch and brake fluid level sensor are very simple mechanism and as you can re-create the hand brake light issue without moving the car, you just need to find where the line is pulled down to GND.


How is #2 situation?
Does it still stay continuously On or come On briefly during this 5min period after starting the engine?


Any photo showing the repaired GND described in #4?


I’m not sure which connector you are referring to in your last post #18. Any photo?


I noticed that you have posted the same on NSX Prime so hope you will get further info from there as well.


Not easy without having access to the car and diagnosing this kind of issue over the web as it could take long hours yet it could be just a simple solution......
I may wait before I post again until I get further detail........

Kaz

Hi Kaz,

I have not had much chance to test the circumstances to pin point an exact sequence that triggers the lights other than two test drives last night that were about 10 minuites long with multiple uses of the brake pedal that then bring on the handbrake and brake light warning lights together which in turn trigger the ALB and TCS lights shortly after.
The multiplug is near the bulkhead between the boot and the engine bay on the right as you look into the boot, I will upload a photo when I get the chance.
I will also ask my auto electrician to read this thread and see if he can add further detail that may help.

[Sudesh]

Scott as your in there already, you should be able to find the orange 2 pin connector, this is the ALB/ABS/Speed sensor connector. Just to be sure you should put the multi meter on the pins and read the OHMS, the resistance should be anywhere from 750 to 1200 going by the service manual.

I'd also do this for all the sensors anyway, just to be sure.

I'm currently waiting for a new sensor to come in for a members car, his right front sensor was completely dead, corrosion seemed to have set into the hub and split the sensor. Ill be posting up the photos and info on this through the week.

[scottg]

I understand from Richard the autoelectrician that he is getting a fault code 2 from the ALB unit any ideas? He is also trying to disciver how to disable the brake light out warning light if anyone can help?

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

Hi, Scott.

As mentioned in my previous post #20, for the time being, I strongly recommend leaving the ALB and TCS warnings if both of them were triggered every time after you saw the hand brake warning first.

Your mechanic shall see ALB #2 and TCS #2 error code because of hand brake warning light.
Regardless of the cause of the hand brake warning light, if it was on, it will 100% trigger both the ALB and TCS warning lights in about 30sec after the hand brake one became on.

If I were you, I would first look into the cause of hand brake warning light because that is a very simple circuit.
You may have short circuit somewhere on the car.

[Edit: Also, it would be nice if you can find the answers for the questions in post #20. That will help the diagnosis.]


Kaz

[scottg]

Hi, Scott.

As mentioned in my previous post #20, for the time being, I strongly recommend leaving the ALB and TCS warnings if both of them were triggered every time after you saw the hand brake warning first.

Your mechanic shall see ALB #2 and TCS #2 error code because of hand brake warning light.
Regardless of the cause of the hand brake warning light, if it was on, it will 100% trigger both the ALB and TCS warning lights in about 30sec after the hand brake one became on.

If I were you, I would first look into the cause of hand brake warning light because that is a very simple circuit.
You may have short circuit somewhere on the car.

[Edit: Also, it would be nice if you can find the answers for the questions in post #20. That will help the diagnosis.]


Kaz

I am not sure which question in post 20 you mean Kaz can you narrow it down for me a little?

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

Ah......
Almost all of them so I may just cut and paste the previous post...... lol.......

Any way, I’ll try my best to simplify it.


Fact 1
Started the engine, car was stationary.
About 5min later, both hand brake and brake lamp warnings triggered at the same time but at this point, neither ALB nor TCS warning triggered.

Q1: Could you confirm that whenever the hand brake and brake lamp warnings were triggered, they were always triggered exactly at the same time?

Q2: During this 5min period, did you press on the brake pedal?

Q3: Was your brake light off during this 5min period?
In other words, can you trigger the brake lamp (and hand brake) warning even without touching the brake pedal or even when the brake lamp was never switched On?

Q4. Could you confirm that unless you start moving the car, neither ALB nor TCS warning triggered while the car was stationary?

Q5: Is Fact 1 still true even after Richard made some sort of fix at one of the GND point?


Fact 2
The brake light was continuously On even without touching the brake pedal at some point.

Q6. Was this the case during the 5min period when the above Fact 1 was observed? (Same as Q3)

Q7. Is Fact 2 still true?


Fact 3
The ALB and TCS warnings were never triggered until after the hand brake and brake lamp warnings were triggered.
The ALB and TCS warnings were never triggered when the car was stationary even after the hand brake and brake lamp warnings were triggered while the car was stationary.

Q8. Is Fact 3 still true?


Fact 4
For some reason, initially, it was not possible to read the error code for ALB and TCS.
However, just recently, ALB error code #2 was reported.

Q9. Any error code on TCS? You should see #2 on TCS as well.

Q10. Any other error codes on ALB and TCS?

Q11. Any other error codes for other devices such as Engine, etc?

Q12. Any photo on exactly which GND point was fixed by Richard?

Q13. Any photo on exactly which connector you were referring to as ‘multiplug’ in your post #18?

Q14. What has been done to investigate the hand brake warning light circuit so far?
Any parts replaced?
State of the hand brake switch?
State of brake fluid float sensor?
Any connectors disconnected to narrow down the area of short circuit within the hand brake warning light circuit?


I think this is enough for the time being......

Kaz

[scottg]

Thanks Kaz,

Please see below answers to date:

Fact 1
Started the engine, car was stationary.
About 5min later, both hand brake and brake lamp warnings triggered at the same time but at this point, neither ALB nor TCS warning triggered.

Q1: Could you confirm that whenever the hand brake and brake lamp warnings were triggered, they were always triggered exactly at the same time?
Yes they are

Q2: During this 5min period, did you press on the brake pedal?
Yes

Q3: Was your brake light off during this 5min period?
In other words, can you trigger the brake lamp (and hand brake) warning even without touching the brake pedal or even when the brake lamp was never switched On?
As far as I am aware it is with application of the pedal. At times I start the car and they are both already on now without applying the pedal though, I can then stop the car re start and if not illuminated they will come on shortly after once I have used the brakes a few times.

Q4. Could you confirm that unless you start moving the car, neither ALB nor TCS warning triggered while the car was stationary?
That is correct they come on after the other lights are triggered and normally it would seam once you start to go over about 20-30mph

Q5: Is Fact 1 still true even after Richard made some sort of fix at one of the GND point?
Yes.


Fact 2
The brake light was continuously On even without touching the brake pedal at some point.
As above

Q6. Was this the case during the 5min period when the above Fact 1 was observed? (Same as Q3)
I think this is when it is activated on start up but Richard may have experienced it differently, I will ask him to look at this thread again and correct me accordingly.

Q7. Is Fact 2 still true?
From start up I believe

Fact 3
The ALB and TCS warnings were never triggered until after the hand brake and brake lamp warnings were triggered.
Correct

The ALB and TCS warnings were never triggered when the car was stationary even after the hand brake and brake lamp warnings were triggered while the car was stationary.
Correct

Q8. Is Fact 3 still true?
Yes

Fact 4
For some reason, initially, it was not possible to read the error code for ALB and TCS.
However, just recently, ALB error code #2 was reported.

Q9. Any error code on TCS? You should see #2 on TCS as well.
I will have to ask Richard. The reason for no error code before was the fact it was with a different garage and they didn't have the ability to read the code I imagine.

Q10. Any other error codes on ALB and TCS?
I will ask Richard but he just told me code 2 on ALB when I last asked him

Q11. Any other error codes for other devices such as Engine, etc?
As above

Q12. Any photo on exactly which GND point was fixed by Richard?
I will do later today and post Kaz, its a grey multi plug on the left of the boot by the engine bay bulkhead that plugs the rear wiring loom in though.

Q13. Any photo on exactly which connector you were referring to as ‘multiplug’ in your post #18?
As above

Q14. What has been done to investigate the hand brake warning light circuit so far?
Any parts replaced?
State of the hand brake switch?
State of brake fluid float sensor?
Any connectors disconnected to narrow down the area of short circuit within the hand brake warning light circuit?
As I understand it these have been by passed to test them with no difference.

[scottg]

Iunderstand we also had fault code 2.1 on TCS according to Richard

[NSX 2000]

Reading this thread reminded me of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMhp2ShPVQw&NR=1&feature=endscreen

[scottg]

Reading this thread reminded me of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMhp2ShPVQw&NR=1&feature=endscreen

Ok Ok no nmeed to mock me, we have tried the obvious.

I have tried to upload a picture I took last night Kaz but the system wont cut and paste it and the picture upload option dosnt work for me for some reason.

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

Hi, Scott.

Based on what you wrote so far, following points are not clarified yet.


1. What happens if you never touch the brake pedal even before starting the engine?

Please start the engine without touching the brake pedal in P range with hand brake released.
In P range, the gbox is mechanically locked so the car won't move even on the slope.
Keep running the engine for 5min or until you get the hand brake and brake lamp warning lights.
During this period, please do not touch the brake pedal and please monitor the brake lights at the tail light assy.
[Edit: Any warning lights?]
[Edit: Did you see any brake lights coming on at the tali light assy even without touching the brake pedal?]


2. The answer to Q14 is very important needs further info.

It seems that you can re-create the hand brake warning light issue fairly easy.
When you managed to trigger it, you need to check the state of the hand brake signal line between the gauge cluster and the hand brake switch.
If it is not at GND level, then your issue is very likely to be inside the gauge.
If it is at GND level, you need to trace it back to find where it is shorted to the GND.

For the answer to my Q14, you wrote ‘As I understand it these have been by passed to test them with no difference’.

It is not clear exactly how/what was bypassed for the GND level signal on hand brake line.
In fact, if he already managed to do so, he already found the cause of one issue.


3. Photo of the multiplug.
No need to upload to NSXCB server. We want to save the HD space.
Can you post the link to web based photo album, if you have one?


4. Just a matter of interest, is your NSX UK or JDM spec?
If UK spec, please ignore the following.

If it is JDM, where is your rear fog light?
In other words, is it using one of the backup/reverse light or something else to act as the rear fog?

On some of the UK based JDM NSX that I worked with in the past,
I noticed that someone wired the rear fog into one of the brake light socket (JDM uses four brake lights instead of two on the European models) and because of this, it triggered the brake lamp warning.
It was using very strange method or even just a black tape to disable/hide the brake lamp warning light.


Kaz

[NSXGB]

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/168793-Parking-Brake-Switch-Not-Working?highlight=Parking&p=1659097#post1659097

[scottg]

Richard is here again this afternoon to look at the lights issue and we have run the car for over 10 mins stationary without touch the brakes and no light. The very first time we press the pedal and they come on again so don't know if that should direct us to anything specific?

[goldtop]

Did this ever get resolved?

Obvious reason to ask: the exact same sequence of warning lights is afflicting my '96 manual targa. (Sudesh, this is Ed's car from your refresh thread). I did a search and found this thread and thought I'd bump it instead of starting a new one.

This issue started this morning on the drive to work, from cold and then following each engine-off stop I made (Post Office, filling station). I've not had time to try any of the diagnostics suggested here, but will do ASAP.

[scottg]

It did. In my case it was a short in the wiring. The best place to start is check the fluid level in the reservoir and all the light bulbs at the rear if you dont have a multi meter to hand. The system trips out your TCS and ALB as a precaution if it thinks there is an issue with the brake circuit ( you can no doubt hear the relay click over your left shoulder when this happens. If your boot area has been damp in the past (often rear light seals need doing) then the connectors corrode and this again can cause the issue.
I ended up with an auto electrician tracing through my systeem to sort it out.
Good Luck
Scott


Did this ever get resolved?

Obvious reason to ask: the exact same sequence of warning lights is afflicting my '96 manual targa. (Sudesh, this is Ed's car from your refresh thread). I did a search and found this thread and thought I'd bump it instead of starting a new one.

This issue started this morning on the drive to work, from cold and then following each engine-off stop I made (Post Office, filling station). I've not had time to try any of the diagnostics suggested here, but will do ASAP.

[goldtop]

Hi Scott - thanks for the update. Will go through this as methodically as possible. I do have a DMM, so can test as/where necessary.

[goldtop]

Quick update to say that I do have one brake light out (on teh left side). So it's perhaps a bulb (would be handy if it's something so simple!). Will report back.

Interesting that if it is so simple, the ABS/TCS lights coming on - always within perhaps 300 yards of setting off - must be a secondary cummulative fault warning.

[scottg]

Quick update to say that I do have one brake light out (on teh left side). So it's perhaps a bulb (would be handy if it's something so simple!). Will report back.

Interesting that if it is so simple, the ABS/TCS lights coming on - always within perhaps 300 yards of setting off - must be a secondary cummulative fault warning.

I think they are triggered when you are over a certain mph. Fingers crossed for the bulb

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

Hi, goldtop. Very interesting post.
If you see this post, could you kindly confirm the following points for the future reference?

Q1: Addition to the Brake Lamp, ABS and TCS warning lights, did you get Parking brake indicator as well?
Q2: Did you read the error code for the ABS and TCS?


As a side note, based on the recent post by another member 'amritsingh', you may want to check the status of each terminals inside the 20pin connector at the left forward section of the boot behind the carpet.

http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/showthread.php?11169-Hopefully-no-more-ALB-TCS-Errors





https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9UfQv_86ygs/UdIFsx8wA6I/AAAAAAAAKZA/Uolg21CitV4/s640/IMG_0036.JPG
It's the one at the upper centre of this photo.
Also, the GND point at the left side of this photo is very important.





https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--vl5FYU6rlc/UdIFts_3KgI/AAAAAAAAKZI/wzApIhQcLsk/s640/IMG_0037.JPG
As we all know, from time to time, we get condensation inside the boot and it can cause
corrosion and break off the plate of the female terminal (as seen in the photo by amritsingh in the above link).

If this happens at one of the wire from the brake lamp failure detection circuit or
any of the wires at the rear wheel speed sensors, then it can trigger several warning lights.

Though, I haven’t managed to find out the scenario on how these warning lights can trigger
the parking brake indicator like Scott experienced......

Hope it is an easy fix for you.

Kaz

[goldtop]

Hi Kaz

Will revist this thread and update it when the new bulbs arrive - the car is parked up at the moment and I'm using my daily driver.

But for sure, the symptoms were EXACTLY the same as Scott's: start car and there are no lights, then within a second or so (perhaps when touching brake or maybe not), the Parking bright warning light and Brake light warning light come on. Then after a few metres' of driving, the TCS and ABS lights come on.

I will update on all of the points above as soon as possible.

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

Thank you for the update, goldtop.

Interesting to hear that you were getting exactly the same sequence as Scott.

The ABS/TCS warning lights are the result of getting the parking brake indicator while the car is moving.
If both front wheels are above 6mph and the parking brake indicator is on for more than 30sec, then it will trigger code #2 for both the ABS and TCS so I won’t worry too much about these.

It must be something to do with the brake lamp failure detection module and also the wiring because on JDM, even if you trigger the brake lamp failure, the parking brake indicator stays off.
The detection module and the wiring are different depending on the country spec.
JDM has two brake lights per side whereas UK spec has just one.

Thank you for sharing the info as I learnt something new today again.

Hope you can fix the issue by replacing the bulb.

Kaz

[NSXGB]

The ABS/TCS warning lights are the result of getting the parking brake indicator while the car is moving.
If both front wheels are above 6mph and the parking brake indicator is on for more than 30sec, then it will trigger code #2 for both the ABS and TCS so I won’t worry too much about these.

Kaz

Hi Kaz. I know that by leaving the handbrake on one notch and driving above 6mph for 30 seconds triggers the ABS & TCS lights which also disables both. Was that intentional by Honda for track use (?) as I always thought or just a coincidence or a by product of the system?

[goldtop]

Just a quick update to say that replacing the bulb did clear all of these issues. I'll revisit the thread ASAP to see if there are other questions I've left unanswered.

(coincidentally, I spoke to a Prelude owner today who had the exact same issue, so it seems it's a Honda 'thing')