Slipping Clutch

[mutley]

Hi All,

As of last Wednesday, my clutch started slipping when going for fast acceleration, I know I know, that means the clutch is on it's way out, all my question is:
Does anyone know how much I am going to get royaly humped for to get a new clutch fitted?

[Mr_Spanners]

If you're going the Honda dealer route expect anywhere from £1000-£1400 all inc.

~Phil.

[jaytip]

£1400> i would say from a dealer.I think the clutch alone(with a new flywheel)is about a grand.

[mutley]

Thanks guys, you really know how to cheer someone up!!!!

[markc]

You could DIY?


Just done mine as a winter project. Couldn't be described as easy and the manual (pdf one on Prime) is shiiiite but it's not rocket science.

The parts (friction plate, cover plate and release bearing) came to £482 after a Honda Revolutions 15% discount.

Having experience of it, and fallen into a couple of traps (one of the start motor bolts is a pain and you must remove the front "beam" that carries the front engine/gearbox mount) I'd be happy to offer tips and advice.

Took me ages (20+hrs) but, if you have the time and space, you can save yourself a grand and have the satisfaction of having done it for yourself. :D

Cheers

Mark

[mutley]

Thanks Mark, I have downloaded the manual off prime (even managed to get it printed) and yeah I did think about having a go myself, although the time and space is the main problem.

Also, I thought that changing the clutch you would have to change the flywheel? I'll have to see how the cash flow goes and if push comes to shove I'll get a dealer/specialist to do it, although saving a grand would be a big bonus.

Cheers
Jim

[markc]

Mutley,

Mines a later 3.2 6 spd car with the more usual single plate clutch all be it with a dual mass flywheel.

I read up on Prime about the clutch change and it seems that in the USA they nearly always change the flywheel as well... why??? :?

I spoke to Trident Honda Weybridge (an NSX Service Centre) and they say ther hardly ever change the flywheel, at least in the 3.2's.

I have to say I can't really see why a flywheel should wear out along with the clutch plate/s?
Maybe the dual mass "mounting/bush" could wear but IMHO it smacks a bit of "expensive car, so we can get away with this sort of excessive maintenance".

Inspection after removal showed that my old friction plate was hardly worn at all but the pressure plate had 3 hot spots (smooth areas) on it where it looked like most of the initial take up happened... it must have warped slightly. The release bearing didn't feel nearly as smooth as the new one either.
My car is a '97 (JDM) and has only done 20K miles so it's not really surprising that the friction plate material wasn't worn down, but I think the pressure plate springs must have just aged and lost their correct "springyness".

Driving it, it felt inconsistent and the pedal tended to feel heavier and springier when hot. It never slipped and didn't really seem to be getting any worse over the year I've had the car but I knew it wasn't right.

Anyway it's much better now, both slighter and smoother. :D

Mark

[slieve_croob]

I own a 92 NSX in origional condition, 35k miles, & lightly driven.

When I purchased this vehicle some time ago, I recieved in lieu of some discount 2 No OE clutch friction plates (twin plate clutch) and the thrust bearing as an inducement to the deal.

Given that there are no immediate signs of wear on the current clutch, but that the advice is generally given to replace the entire clutch assembly at the same time, is there any consensus of opinion as to whether I should perhaps change the twin clutch plates early and forgo the flywheel /pressure plate renewal??

I believe the entire kit comes as a package, and if I move in this direction I could very well end up with 2 friction plates ad infinetum!!

Your considered response in your own time.

Regards

[710]

Wow, this thread is coming at the perfect time.
About 2 months ago my throw-out bearing went. Suddenly. What a noise it makes. Had to get the car towed home.
The clutch still grips really well. No juddering or slipping.

I spoke to some NSX guys here, “jeez, THAT never happens”, typical, my luck.

Anyway I don’t have the money to get it fixed, so I’m going to do it myself, next month.

I am considering
T/O bearing of course, and getting the clutch plates(discs) re done, or buy 2 more Honda ones. Put the whole thing together again, which seems silly after all the work.

or

I have gone 30,000 miles on the stock clutch, it’s still really good. I am really light on clutches generally.
But after seeing what’s in there, I’ll decide if I buy the RPS clutch. Actually my point of this post is that if everything is almost worn out, I’m considering the RPS clutch kit. Aluminium flywheel included. $2000.

I’m afraid it will be hard to press though. The stock clutch is not hard to press. And the stock clutch seems almost up the job, so it will be a difficult choice. Probably my wallet will dictate what route I take.

I’m pissed off at the T/O bearing going. Just my luck. Who ever heard of a T/O bearing going on a Honda NSX? Ford, ok, Honda, come on.

Mark, I’m really going to need your advice. Did you do it alone or did you need two people?
I have a lift. And a heater. And tools.

[markc]

Slieve,

Personally I would never change just the friction plate/s when doing a clutch.

My own experience (on a variety of cars from MkII Escorts to 911's (SC and 993) has always been that if the friction plate is worn/broken then the pressure plate won't be far behind... and while you're in there you may as well change the release (throw/out) bearing as it's the cheapest of the clutch assembly parts.

Also, if you've gone to the trouble of removing the gearbox which takes 20 times as long as simply unbolting and bolting up the new clutch then you may as well do all of the clutch parts?

However, replacing the flywheel is quite another thing?

In the case of the 6spd cars (like mine) dual mass flywheel, as I understand it the part that can fail is the centre mount/bearing and if this does fail you will either have no drive at all or it will sound horrible (banging and grinding) as drive is taken up.
Other than this if the clutch mating surface looks ok, the flywheel should be ok to re-use.

710 (Peter),

I did the clutch DIY mostly on my own but my Dad (you met him at Spa as well) was on hand to assist.

I did toy with the idea of the RPS clutch which comes as a package with a new lightweight flywheel and gets good reviews stateside, but elected to go with the factory parts partly due to fears of excessive pedal effort and partly cost.

Removal of the airbox, starter motor, top gearbox mount and various electrical connections is all done from above and is mostly straightforward. However, one of the starter motor bolts (upper/rearmost) is impossible to see and I had a lot of trouble "landing" on it with a socket. Try using a mirror to see it first.

Drain the gearbox oil before jacking the car up to work underneath.

All the suspension "tie bars" and arms etc are done from under the car. I jacked my car up and supported it on axle stands at the jacking points just ahead of the rear wheels.
I unbolted both toe arms (one each side) from their inner ends and unbolted the bottom mounts from both (each side) lower wishbones, this saves having to split the balljoints. This gives you enough clearance to jack up, and hence outward, the hub assembly so that the drive shafts can be pulled out of the gearbox and intermediate shaft bearing on each side respectively.
On my car I didn't have to remove the exhaust downpipe fron the front cylider bank, I just removed the cat section between it and the silencer section.
The intermediate shaft is bolted to the engine and is also a bit fiddly as it looks like it will come out without splitting the bush... it doesn't you have to split the bush!
I used an engine hoist to support the weight of the gearbox from it's already bolted on lifting bracket and supported the engine on a jack under the sump.
Unbolt the front engine/transmission mount from under the car (one of these bolts is difficult to get a spanner on and turn and is veeeeerry long, I recommed you get one of those 14mm ratchet/ring spanners, I did) and the remove the entire "front support bar" which runs virtually the entire width of the chassis in front on the engine/gearbox. Unbolt and remove the rear lower gearbox mount completely.
Then it's simple a case of unbolting the transmission mounts and pulling the 'box off. Lower it to the floor and get it out of the way so that you can see the clutch assembly.

Undolt and replace the bit you need to.

The Release (T/O) bearing is fiddly in that it just dangles in positsion located only by a light retaining spring. This MUST be in position when you put the gearbox back in, it cannot be threaded back in when you're half way through.... ask me how I know :x

Assembly is reverse of above. That starter motor bolt is even more of a pain to put back in :evil:

I won't pretend it's easy MKII Escort easy but it really isn't tooo difficult. It is time consuming though and took me weeks of weekends, maybe 20+ hrs in total.

Cheers

Mark

[710]

Thanks Mark, I’m going to print this out. I really appreciate the info, I have worked on cars a lot and when I get sick and tired of it, it takes a lot of gumption to get back into it. Rally car building is ok, it’s the repairs on broken road cars that pisses me off.

I had considered dropping the entire engine/gearbox/ suspension assembly. Then putting the gearbox back on (I will be alone) might be easier.
What do you think? Drop or don't drop.

[markc]

Peter, I don't think I'd go that route myself.

A couple additional moves and potential problems spring to mind...

1) You'd have to drain and disconnect the water system.
2) You'd have to disconnect the A/C system.
3) You'd have to remove most of not all of the exhaust system, inc manifolds??
4) You'd have to take off even more of the suspension components.
5) If you meant dropping the engine/gearbox out from under the car, I can't see how you'd get it high enough (the car) to do so without a 2/4 post ramp.
6) If you meant pulling the motor/tranny assembly out through the top, the top looks too narrow.

I know what you mean about fixing cars when they're actually broken, especially when you have to have them fixed to use for work etc on the following Monday morning. :(

I know I'm lucky with the NSX being a pure toy/fun car and me having the time, space, capability and inclination to do it myself, but I really enjoyed doing the clutch.

The car is quite a delight to work on with nothing being a total P.I.T.A or being of such a poor design that it was siezed and/or the only way to remove it is to break it like some cars I've worked on!:evil: Even the exhaust bolts came straight off, almost never heard of in my experience.

If/when you do go ahead feel free to ask me for advice here or call me at home on 01276 475448 or Mob 07747 691595 and I'll try to help.

Also, check VBNSX's Clutch DIY thread on Prime here... http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22883&highlight=clutch+diy

I used this as a guide and while not perfectly detailed it helped a lot.

Cheers

Mark

[710]

2) You'd have to disconnect the A/C system.


Sh*t, you’re right.

[mutley]

After much pondering and deliberation... I've thought to myself F**k it, I'll have a go.
I'f I get stuck at any stage, I'll scream for help.

[markc]

Mutley,

Happy to offer assistance if you run into any probs, you can contact me as above.

A couple of other little nuggets I've thought of....

The Oxygen senors prevent the exhaust from being completely removed and these are easy to damage if you remove them, so I didn't.
The wiring to the front one is held in place to a heat shield that is bolted to the front support bar/beam. If you unbolt the heat shield and unclip the wire from it's platic retainer you will have enough room to get the heat shield out of the way without removing the o2 sensor from the manifold. Much the same for the rear o2 sensor. However, these may be a bit differant on the 5spd car as the manifolds are a differant design.

Clutch plate alignment was easy for me as it mine has the single plate clutch, I did it by eye and with my socket extension with was an almost perfect fit in the centre splined drive. Could be a lot more difficult with the twin plate clutch so you might want to borrow a proper alignment tool AND you also have to initialise the two clutch plates on your version.

I didn't mention disconnecting the gear change cable and removing the clutch slave cylinder but these are both dead easy.
Remember where you put the split pins for the gear change cables tho', they're easy to loose!

Lastly tools....
No really special ones required except a portable engine hoist makes removal and particularly re-install of the 'box much easier. didn't use it for removal as gravitiy is your friend but for re-install it was a huge help. I couldn't balance the 'box on a trolly jack and jack it up squarely to the correct position. It kept catching on the driveshaft or suspension and knock it off centre. Pulling it up from above with the hoist after roping it so that it lifted squarely was soooo much easier.

That 14mm ratchet-ring spanner and/or a looooong 14mm ring spanner for the troublesome bolt on the front engine mount.

Other than that a standard 10, 12, 14, 15, 17, 19mm sockets with a variety of extension lengths and ring spanners of the same sizes should do it.

Good luck and I'll wait for your call :lol:

Mark

[mutley]

Thanks Mark, sounds like I'll need all the help I can get, but like everything else, I suppose I'll understand more when I'm actually doing the job and can see what's what. Not sure when this will take place though, as I'll have to raise the cash for the parts, and then get the time and the space to do it.

I'l certainly give you the nod if and when any probs occur.

thanks again