BEST TYRES FOR PHASE 2 NSX?

[david_f]

Hi everyone! I'm looking to change the tyres on my phase 2 (late 2000) NSX which currently has Dunlop SP Sport 8050's fitted. Given the odd front tyre size (i.e. 215/45 ZR x 16), I think I'm limited to either the aforementioned Dunlops, Bridgestone Potenza RE 010's or Yokohama A-022's - as recommended by Honda. Does anyone know what's considered the best of these three (or a more up-to-date alternative - in the right sizes)? I use my car mainly as a weekender and track day toy. Thanks for any help. David.

[Kevin]

Change the 'odd' tyre size to 225 for the front, and 255 for the rear, and you will find more selection. These sizes are fine. I use Bridgestone S03s. These sizes are also cheaper than the odd original sizes.

[david_f]

Change the 'odd' tyre size to 225 for the front, and 255 for the rear, and you will find more selection. These sizes are fine. I use Bridgestone S03s. These sizes are also cheaper than the odd original sizes.

Thanks for the tip Kevin, much obliged!

[ctrlaltdelboy]

agreed - these are the sizes I too am currently running.

I have been strongly recommeded to use Kumho V70A's which will be my next set - awesome dry grip + reasonable wet grip + lighter in weight than any other tyre I have checked (a big advantage - unsprung weight is worth 10x as much sprung weight) - my shopping around has led me to the conclusion that the cheapest supplier for these is South Shore Tyres on 01253 761362.

Darren

[NSXGB]

....are the Kumho tyres really any good?? My experience of them years ago was a real cheapo budget job, that made my mates Capri handle even more like a dog! I have seen the Kumho's for £70 a pop in 'our' sizes, which I suppose is tempting, but do you really want to chance it?

I have just bought a full set of RE010's (16"&17"...£470 later), which I personally chose because they are specifically made for the NSX, therefore it should handle the way Honda intended...3000 miles more & I will make my mind up whether to go for regular tyres again or not!

Also, fitting a 225 to the front of a pre power steering NSX...has anyone tried it? How much heavier did it make your steering?


Simon.

[ctrlaltdelboy]

there are a few of us here running 225's up front without PAS - no problem. I can't comment on handling differences as I have only tracked the NSX in this size.

The Kumho ECSTA V70A has some pretty rave reviews as far as I can see - it is known as the V700 in the states- see here (http://www.kumhousa.com/Products/PtnDetails.asp?CatID=8&mainCatID=1) for info.

I have been sold on them as my next tyre by (aside from good reviews and light weight) Richy Voaden - I know Richy from the Honda Revolutions club, he has been driving Castle Coombe for 15 years or more and last year I gave up trying to keep up with him on track in his Kumho-shod Prelude (http://forum.hondarevolutions.com/setups/?setupID=7) (I'll try again this year though :wink: ) anyway, Richy reckons they are the best road tyres he has tried on the track - that'll do for me!

[NSXGB]

....they sound quite good, a bit more specialised than the ones I have seen at £62 each!

Any idea how much lighter they are?

[ctrlaltdelboy]

weight difference for me is:

current front - Eagle F1 225/45/16 @ 23.5lb
new front - Kumho V70A 245/45/16 @ 22.6lb

x2 = 1.8lb or 800g - not much in itself, but acheived at the same time as a larger footprint - plus the new wheels are lighter by 1.9kg or 4.2lb each giving me a total front axle weight saving of 10.16lb or 4.6kg

current rear - Bridgestone SO2PP 255/40/17 @ 27.5lb
new rear - Kumho V70A 275/40/17 @ 27.4lb

x2 = 0.2lb - virtually nothing, but again a wider tyre, plus the wheel weight saving again is 7.9lb giving a rear axle weight saving of 8.1lb or 3.7kg

total unsprung weight saved = 18.2lb or 8.3kg whilst getting more rubber on the ground.

I would mention that the tyre weights do of course vary from size to size, and the widest suitable fitment for a standard (7") front wheel is the 225/50/16 which weighs in at 24lb - slightly heavier than the Eagle F1 I am currently running.
For a standard rear rim (8.5") the widest fitment is 245/40/17 which wilst coming in at a svelte 22lb could lead to excessive oversteer if used in conjunction with the 225's at the front.

if reducing unsprung weight is of greater importance to you than increasing the contact patch then you could run these rears with the 205/45/16's which weighing in at only 18lb which could be a nice combination :idea:

sorry for waffling - I hope this post has been helpful rather than more confusing :!:

[NSXGB]

....putting tyres of those sizes would surely baffle the TCS system if used :?:

I felt the handling of my car was not as it should be with 205/45/16 Michelins up front with 245/45/17 P Zero's at rear...causing, IMO, understeer where it shouldn't. Occaisional oversteer was also experienced without TCS cutting in.
Even though the tyres were supposed to be within tolerance (to keep the TCS happy), I found that the green TCS light didn't start blinking (when it cut in) until the tyres were practically worn to their limit.....thus suggesting to me it 'aint working right??

I may be just waffling, but that's how I came to the decision to get the RE010's all round....

[ctrlaltdelboy]

I am shocked and surprised at the last post.

Baffling the TCS is of no concern to me - the first thing I do when I start the engine is to turn it off.
I have even purchased (but not yet fitted) a 'SmartTCS' which will keep the darn thing off even if I stall or switch the ign off.

why anyone would dream of driving the NSX hard with that wretched system interfering I cannot imagine - sounds like an accident waiting to happen. I prefer to take control (and responsibility) of the vehicle personally. Sunday driving however is different as is getting used to the NSX when newly acquired.

If you are cornering at the kind of speeds where you are experiencing under or oversteer how can you possibly make any kind of judgement as to what tyre/spring/swaybar/gearing/LSD setup works best for you when you have the TCS sticking it's oar in and altering the entire situation?

I'm not trying to insult you in any way, nor am I suggesting that I am a better driver than you, but I would like to politely suggest that you forget the discussion above as it has no relevance to driving under the supervision of the TCS and is potentially dangerous to attempt.

If I have mis-interpreted your position by the way I read your post then please let me know and I will retract any inappropriate comments - as stated, I am not trying to have a pop at you here.

Darren

[Kevin]

I felt the handling of my car was not as it should be with 205/45/16 Michelins up front with 245/45/17 P Zero's at rear

You might not need me to tell you that these sizes are not quite correct for the NSX, and mixing tyres is going to have an effect.

FR size should be 205/45/16, RR should be 245/40/17.

Also I have not noticed any heavier feeling to the steering with the larger tyres I have put on (225/45/16 & 255/40/17).

[DamianW]

Darren - bit strong wasn't it? Maybe there's history there, I don't know.

Personally I'm glad there's TC on the car, but then I pretty much only intend on public road driving for it and if you're in the realms of understeer/oversteer in a 170mph supercar on public roads you want sectioned. IMHO.

[NSXGB]

Hmmm, I thought that was a bit strong too, but I'm sure not meant as harsh as it came across??


While I'm new to the NSX scene I am admittedly at the lower end of the knowledge scale. I'm just posting my thoughts/comments so that someone can maybe point me in the right direction or learn from my mistakes maybe? After all that's why we are here?


I know that the TCS on the NSX is not brilliant, and I know that if you are driving the car to it's limit on a track you may not want TCS on. But handling characteristics aren't only important at the limit. Wet weather driving (and I don't mean driving like a nutter) I found my car could understeer where I felt it shouldn't and also oversteering with the TCS on, which in my mind is where you'd most need it on a road car? If my car is performing this way in the wet, IMHO I would think it may not be as good as it should in the dry.

I'm aware that the tyre sizes are wrong all round, something that I did not notice when I bought the car unfortunately. The fronts are like new, suggesting a v hard compound whereas the rears have gone in 4000 miles, being Pirelli's, a very soft compound possibly. I know that having different tyres front/back or left/right will make the car unbalanced and from what I have read I would guess that having a more grippy rear against a not as grippy front would promote understeer.
Taking all of the above into consideration I deemed that my best plan to correct the handling was to put all back to OEM, then I have a better starting point should I need to investigate further.

[Kevin]

The TCS on the NSX is not like a modern Merc's or BMW ESP system. All the TCS seems to do is prevent too much application of throttle in a bend, or when starting off.

If you go in too fast into a corner, the TCS will do nothing to help. I have found it useful on occasion though on small roundabout in the wet.

On the track with my driving style it hasn't caused me real problems. I am very much a 'slow in' to corners. So again if the TCS comes in, it just means I get a very slow exit too!

Biggest prob now is I can't reach the TCS button to turn it off, when I have the 5 point harness on! Usually happens after the first corner of every session.

[Ciaran]

After trying to get Toyo Proxies for a month (last December) I gave up and got a set of Kumho Ecsta, without knowing anything about them. This may seem risky, but the Yokohama's were showing wire so.......!! 6 months on 5,000 miles, a half track day, and I am very impressed. ok I did take off half the toe out on the fronts, which has improved tire life heaps. In the wet they are very good, and very predictable. On the track, (my first in the NSX, Mondello - just outside Dublin), they were very balanced, ok two quick spins in the first session, but no fault of the tires or the TCS (which was off, and really must be to get the best from the car on track). But in the latter sessions, when I learned to take two laps to warm front AND rears and leave the 4x4 brigade off, I started to have some real fun, again they grip very well and are very balanced, which means you can have lots of fun with the trottle. I will certainly be going for them again next time. oh and for anyone interested 225/45/16 and 255/40/17

[trackdemon]

Interesting thread.

"if you're in the realms of understeer/oversteer in a 170mph supercar on public roads you want sectioned. IMHO."

(IMHO) If you pride yourself as a competent driver with a modicum of ability at the wheel then I'd suggest that if your NOT able to comfortably get into the realm of under/oversteer when conditions allow (clear road, good line of sight etc.) then you should consider trying harder on track or taking a driving course of some sort. Sliding the car is not some kind of evil precipice which will instantly cause the end of the world, much as exceeding the speed limit does not automatically endanger those around you. Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that you should be sliding at every corner just that having a little oversteer exiting a 2nd gear corner or a little stablizing understeer powering through a quick bend is a natural part of driving your car hard and you'll learn a little about its behaviour from it. Of course, the it takes a good few miles to get to know your car this well but I'd rather know what my car can and can't do, than never approach the limits and suddenly find out what happens when I need to ask something extra of it.

I'm resolutely in the "switch the TCS off" camp wet or dry. Frankly, it's rubbish; cutting in too late and then overeacting by completely killing the power. In a mid engined car I really don't think that's an ideal mid bend scenario! :shock:
It does concern me a little that there seems to a perception (and I may be misunderstanding here) that TCS will save you from spinning, which is not the case. Stability control (a la Porsche PSM) probably could help, but all TCS will do is kill power - entering a corner too fast or simply inducing oversteer through sheer speed still has to be dealt with by the driver. Luckily the NSX is reasonably progressive in this way; indeed I had a little slide this weekend when I went into a corner a little too quickly :twisted: and the car just started to gently oversteer into the apex allowing me to tighten my line and get off the brakes. Good fun!
Incidentally, I don't think the TCS would/should be affected in its operation by different size wheels and/or tyres as most traction control systems detect wheelspin by recognizing wheel rotation speed disparity across the axle, diagonally or both. Either way its the individual wheels higher rotation speed that triggers the system rather than increased or lowered gearing (of course, your speedo may not be as accurate as it was though!)

As an aside, I'm on my 3rd set of rear tyres since I bought the car (Toyo Proxes TX-1 as I find them excellent in the wet as well) but the fronts (Pilot sports) look like they'll last another 20000 miles! I've stuck with standard sizes but I've recently had the tracking looked at (lost a little of the rear toe in the hope that my tyres will last more than 2k miles!) and I'm trying different pressures. I'm told that running less rear pressure (say minus 5-10PSI) makes the rear breakaway more progressive. I'd certainly recommend the TX-1's - good tyre at a good price.

[DamianW]

Just to readjust any perceptions of me from my comments: I will be doing a driver training course in the NSX just as soon as I have the money for a new set of rears ( ;) ). I won the "track driver" award at the Lotus driver training day I attended, so whilst I know I'm no Ayrton I do believe I have some skill.

I have no problem with people driving quickly on clear roads, it would be hypocritical of me to say otherwise ... my assertion that you need "sectioned" was too strong. If you're constantly over the limits on public roads, however, I'd say you need to do more track days or get into racing. Simple as that.

Interesting points about the TCS, guess its an old system. I would certainly switch if off for track driving, I'd disable the ABS too.

[ctrlaltdelboy]

just thought I'd say how chuffed I am to be part of a forum which can discuss differing points of view in such a grown up and mutually respectful manner.
It has crossed my mind more than once in this thread alone the kind of flaming and derogatory responses that would have been thrown around on some other boards I have been to in the past.

Thanks for making this such a great community!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Kevin]

I'd just like to see the people that can slide the car at will on roads (ITHO), attending the NSXCB trackday (17th July, Bedford).

Everyone has their opinion, on driving, sliding, etc etc, but without experiencing and learning from each other there's nothing to compare to.

[ctrlaltdelboy]

Agreed Kev, would be nice to exceed the 11 NSX's we had here last year.

The Date - Sat 17th July 2004
The Venue - Bedford Autodrome (http://www.bedfordautodrome.com/)
The Organiser - RMA Ltd (http://www.rma-limited.co.uk)
The Cost - £225 (less for RMA Members)
The Fun Factor - :D :lol: :shock: 8) :twisted: :D :P :wink: :!:
To Join us - Book here (http://www.rma-limited.co.uk/entry_member.php?event_id=81)

in case any of you have not seen the official thread for this event it is here (http://nsxcb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=74)


Darren

[DamianW]

just thought I'd say how chuffed I am to be part of a forum which can discuss differing points of view in such a grown up and mutually respectful manner.
It has crossed my mind more than once in this thread alone the kind of flaming and derogatory responses that would have been thrown around on some other boards I have been to in the past.


Its too small a community to start bitching at each other. Different people want different things out of their NSX, so long as we can all appreciate that we'll get on fine :D

Nice to see the forum getting some use now isn't it?

Ooh, reminds me I'll have the Combe pictures back on Thursday, including one of your engine bay...

[mcibuk]

Wow - What a thread!!!

As someone who will never want to explore the limits of my car on public roads nor the track (guess i'm just a whimp) it's great to see some enthusiastic exchange of views and opinions with smiles all round at the end.

I saw a similar thread on a USA forum a while back which ended up getting quite ugly so i'm relieved to see sense prevailing here.

I've been particularly interested in this thread as i need a new rear tyre now and was interested to hear comments.

Has anyone got any recommendations for for a long lasting tyre (more than 2k) for strictly fast but sensible road use in all weathers?

Much obliged and learning a lot from the Forum

Cheers,

Peter

[ctrlaltdelboy]

Peter

if your NSX driving is going to be reasonably gentle then you may want to 'relax' your wheel alignments a bit to preserve tyre wear - both standard settings are designed to a greater or lesser degree ot work well when the car is being pushed - when it is not being pushed these alignments result in rear tyres wearing prematurely on the inside edges.

look here (http://nsxprime.com/FAQ/TireWheel/alignment.htm) for info on the factory alignments, you will see that in 1993 the rear toe setting were changed retrospectively for all year models from 6mm to 4mm (give or take 1mm in each case) as a result of a class action lawsuit from a bunch of whining yanks who objected to their 'tires' wearing out too quickly as a result of the 'racecar setup' that Honda built their supercar with :roll:

so for gentle driving without suffering premature tyre wear you should ensure that your rear toe is down to at least 4mm - you may even wish to reduce it lower than that, as 4mm is still a little aggressive (when speaking in terms of regular driving) - I have heard of some people getting close to zero toe at the rear.

hope that helps

Darren

[mcibuk]

Darren,

Many Thanks - very helpful - i've got enough reading material from the link to keep me quite for a while!

Cheers,

Peter

[modarr]

Hey, just to stick my oar in for fun...

My wheels came with Khumo Ecsta's , 225 front, 255 rear.

Opinions?

Steering not unduly heavy on track, parking is a bit of a strain.
Dry grip is excellent, as good as SO3's, may be better with the increased footprint. Haven't driven hard enough in the wet to offer a worthwhile opinion.

TCS will NOT save you spinning on track. Leave it off and keep your foot in if the rear breaks away, the car will behave much more benignly.

ABS cuts in so late that its a real bonus because when it does come in, without it your probably heading for a very hairy lock-up and off. It WILL keep you on the black stuff.

Lowering the rear tyre pressures does produce much more progressive oversteer, not sure about going as far as 10 psi though.

Understeer when you don't want it (usually tight bends, entry and often power on exit) used to plague me too. i found that braking deep in to tight bends eliminates understeer and loosen up the rear ready for some power oversteer on exit. Do it right and you lose little momentum, fail to catch the slide and you spin (Kevin will testify that I know this well). The NSX is remarkably stable under braking, you won't believe how deep you can go under heavy braking.

I have found that increasing tyre contact patch does not translate in to proportionally more grip. The NSX suspension, as with the MX5, is so well designed that it 'works' the correct tyre sizes to maximum performance (and short life). Much wider rubber may not get the full benefit of the suspension. This of course is affected by the set-up of the car in question, I'm talking about a standard NSX here, before I get a lightening bolt hurled at me.

Just a few passing thought that may be of interest to the odd person.

Mo

[Ciaran]

have to agree with all Mo's comments, including the bit about the odd spin (as previously confessed :? ).

Have been running 36psi in the rears, and have found it working well, seems to be wearing very well, and oversteer is very pregressive and lots of fun. 8)

Ciaran

[modarr]

Cool,

Thanks Ciaran :wink:

[david_f]

After trying to get Toyo Proxies for a month (last December) I gave up and got a set of Kumho Ecsta, without knowing anything about them. This may seem risky, but the Yokohama's were showing wire so.......!! 6 months on 5,000 miles, a half track day, and I am very impressed. ok I did take off half the toe out on the fronts, which has improved tire life heaps. In the wet they are very good, and very predictable. On the track, (my first in the NSX, Mondello - just outside Dublin), they were very balanced, ok two quick spins in the first session, but no fault of the tires or the TCS (which was off, and really must be to get the best from the car on track). But in the latter sessions, when I learned to take two laps to warm front AND rears and leave the 4x4 brigade off, I started to have some real fun, again they grip very well and are very balanced, which means you can have lots of fun with the trottle. I will certainly be going for them again next time. oh and for anyone interested 225/45/16 and 255/40/17

Hi Guys, given I started this little hare, I thought I should let you know what I ended up doing. Firstly, on the door stop of my car and in the handbook (late 2000 model) it states the tyre sizes as 215/45x16 front and 245/40x17 rear - not sure where the 205 fronts (on 16") came from? Also, having listened to what others had tried, I ended up going for the Honda recommended Yokohama A 022s. They definitely give a harder ride on the road than the Dunlops and I’ll have to wait to see how they perform/wear on my next track day (Brands Hatch). Incidentally, I did Snetterton last time out with a race driver as a coach and we both found the standard set-up (i.e. straight out of the showroom spec) set-up immense! The only change I’m going to make is harder pads (Ferodo DS2500), dot51 brake fluid and Mobil1 oil (15-50). Having danced all round the Elises and Caterhams, I can assure everyone that we don’t need big wheels or bigger brakes to be a track day hero. Guest that Mr Senna knew something about cars after all… I’ll post again after my next track day. Cheers.