NA2 facelift closing in on NC1 ... or the other way round?

[Senninha]

Just noticed Nigel’s old car pop up on the interweb at an asking price even Plans have not ventured towards for the last 12 .... so I thought I’d have a hunt for the nearest NC1 ... and after a little digging I could get close to a £30k delta ...

To my thinking, if you’ve got £100k to splash on a weekend toy, going an extra £30 is probably do-able ... so what would you choose ... a 50k mile 13yr old car or one with the latest tech, under a year old and only a few thousand miles?

If I was in the position to do so, I’d take the NC1 ...

[NZNick]

I saw that too - and don't quite understand "the market". I know the numbers of RHD NA2's in the UK (& worldwide) are small, but so are the number of NC1's....
I'd try the NC1 too.

[Nick Graves]

Interesting question. It's crossed between my ears with the ludicrous prices of late.

Beancounter head says the old banger will depreciate less, probably be more reliable(!) and fits down country lanes more easily.

And I just like it better. So there's a bit of confirmation bias going on.

Ask me again, when the NC is down to junk money and the NA in the stratosphere...

[Senninha]

Interesting question.

Ask me again, when the NC is down to junk money and the NA in the stratosphere...

Quality response as always Nick ... and I like this thinking!

[NoelWatson]

In the absence of actual sold prices it's going to be tough to get an idea of where the market currently is.

When getting up towards £100k, the lure of the manual V10 R8 gets ever so tempting....

[dcnsx]

I personally cannot see the NA selling way past 100k, there’s just not enough badge there. For a lot of people it is just a Honda, which is a lot of the reason why it never was a great seller in the first place. I do hope tho of course to be proved wrong and I will eat my shorts!

[Shawnsx5]

I owned Nigel's last 12 for a couple of years and when I sold it via Plans I think it was a sensible and fair price. Since then it has passed through a few dealers hands with the price jumping each time. Of course there is an even higher priced NA2 facelift (LHD) on a well known auction site for 17% more than the last 12. If you want to pay more there is another well known site that has a LBB base NA2 facelift (in Hong Kong) at £140k. They also have 2 NA2 Rs for £260k plus import costs to the UK. I sold a 2003 NA2 NSXT privately for close to £80k earlier in February 2018. I had 2 willing private buyers at this level. For what it's worth my view is the NA2 facelift UK market is £70-90k for reasonable mileage cars, with pre-facelift NA2's very close to these levels.

As for NC1 vs NA1 vs NA2. I do think that the relative rarity of the cars is a big factor, even the most common early NA1s remain rare.

I won't be surprised to see the NA2 and NC1 price close further over the next few years, after all many older Ps and Fs command higher prices than more recent models, and the same market sees new models depreciate whilst old models continue to rise. NA2 NSX are rarer than many so called rare Ps and Fs. Don't forget NA2 in RHD form are also very rare even in Japan, so they will always have the edge on NA1s in the UK and Japan based on rarity.

If sales remain as slow as they appear to be with NC1s eventually they should also rise (due to rarity) but this assumes the technology stands the test of time as well as the NA models. I personally I remain doubtful about the technological progress of batteries despite Tesla's apparent progress - don't forget batteries have been around longer than internal combustion engines, there are both chemical and physical limits that battery technology will never overcome. I think a Hydrogen breakthrough is more likely than the step changes still required in battery technology.

Finally prices in Japan have been rising at least as fast as the UK market particularly for the NA2, S and R types. There are plenty of imported NA1 cars but don't remember seeing any base model NA2 imports in recent years. Low mileage NA1 R prices seem to be over £150k and NA2s are certainly over £200k with some over £250k. These are Japan prices so add 30-35% to those to get on the road in the UK.

The other factor to consider is with less than 500 UK NA series NSX it only ever matters what value 500 people place on the cars. Thankfully there are more than 500 people that can see past the badges of the more obvious and more common alternative cars. I have lost count of how many P and F owners ask me why I have an NSX and not a P or F, when I take them out in the NSX most are surprised how good it is, some say they would have bought one instead had they known.

This is just the unashamed biased view of a fan of all NA series NSX and internal combustion engines in general.

Neil

[WhyOne?]

I understand where you are coming from Dave, but is Toyota 'more of a badge' than Honda?
https://jalopnik.com/this-1-2-million-toyota-nearly-tripled-in-value-in-thr-484505000

[Shawnsx5]

So rarity of NSX-Rs sits neatly either side of the 351 2000GTs with 483 NA1 NSX-R and 150 NA2 NSX-R. Oh and UK NA2 NSX less than 100! No surprise to me this is reflected to some extent in values of NA2s even with the impact of badge snobbery against them.



I understand where you are coming from Dave, but is Toyota 'more of a badge' than Honda?
https://jalopnik.com/this-1-2-million-toyota-nearly-tripled-in-value-in-thr-484505000

[WhyOne?]

..... don't forget batteries have been around longer than internal combustion engines, there are both chemical and physical limits that battery technology will never overcome. I think a Hydrogen breakthrough is more likely than the step changes still required in battery technology.....

Neil

I'm not so sure. The rewards are huge and the R&D budgets being committed to increasing battery storage density are emormous.

Solid state batteries with 3D terminals (Fisker have recently patented batteries based on this technology claiming a 500 mile range charged in a minute!). Using graphene in batteries also seems to offer huge potential. Someone, somewhere will crack this I'm sure.

[dcnsx]

I understand where you are coming from Dave, but is Toyota 'more of a badge' than Honda?
https://jalopnik.com/this-1-2-million-toyota-nearly-tripled-in-value-in-thr-484505000

Well for me that’s a classic case of more money than sense. But if that’s your thing then fine plus it is a rarer car but would I pay that for a 51 year old NA? No.

[Senninha]

Interesting and look forward to this battery tech coming through to mainstream manufacturing. Whilst I have no intention of giving up the NSX, for daily commuting, much of which is either ‘restricted’ by average speed cameras (or to my mind, artificial lowering of UK speed limits without actually changing them!!!!), or stationary traffic I have no issue at all with hybrid tech, just the battery vs distance vs charging time ... so if as yo suggest Ian, that they can recharge in about the same time it takes to fill with fossil fuels, and I can get 500+ miles then I’ll make the switch. BUt until then, I start the transition with something like a C300h, pay zero congestion and RFL and enjoy 70+mpg ...


I'm not so sure. The rewards are huge and the R&D budgets being committed to increasing battery storage density are emormous.

Solid state batteries with 3D terminals (Fisker have recently patented batteries based on this technology claiming a 500 mile range charged in a minute!). Using graphene in batteries also seems to offer huge potential. Someone, somewhere will crack this I'm sure.

[flyingsniffer]

While I am hopeful that battery packaging and performance will improve as time goes on, not even Elon Musk can change the laws of physics. To make an electric car go 1 mile will take and many electrons in 20 years time as it does now (if car is same weight, friction losses the same blah blah).

The current draws going into electric cars is already massive: it takes 22 hours to charge a Renault Zoe on a 13 amp plug from zero charge. OK you can go up on the current delivery capacity but if everyone buys one, we don't have enough generating capacity to cope.

Remember Tesla's truck? Looks great, pulls like a train? They didn't make too much mention of the battery weight though. Estimates vary depending on range but between 9 and 12 tonnes!

As you can tell, I remain to be convinced that BEV is the way forward. Toyota are pursuing hydrogen, but the issue is infrastructure and how to produce the gas in the first place. PHEV is the best you can get at the moment.

[goldnsx]

... so what would you choose ... a 50k mile 13yr old car or one with the latest tech, under a year old and only a few thousand miles?

If I was in the position to do so, I’d take the NC1 ...
On the continental EU the prices for Gen1 are not as high as in the UK. Also, the price relation of Gen1 to Gen2 vary from 1:3 to 1:2 but neither of them sell really well. So the UK prices for standard Gen1 might be a little bit too high (maybe not for the Type R, you lucky guys :)). If I could get one for the prices in the US (around $140-150k) I might take the NC1 but maybe wouldn't keep it as long as a Gen1.

Future technology: I'm driving hybrids since 9 years on a daily base and every other technology would put me far back at the moment + I guess for the next 10 years too. Even though I wouldn't buy electric I respect Elon Musks effort. At least his investing his revenues from his first big deal back in the economy and will deserve place in automotive history for sure, regardless if electric cars are the future or not.

[dcnsx]

I’ve always been led to believe that fast charging batteries can damage them? If this is the case unless they reinvent the battery fast charging times are always going to be a problem.

[WhyOne?]

I’ve always been led to believe that fast charging batteries can damage them? If this is the case unless they reinvent the battery fast charging times are always going to be a problem.

Very much depends on the battery technology....solid state and graphene based (potential) solutions are very, very different to those currently available.