Performance Upgrades

[BlueNSX]

Can anybody give recommendation on the C/F intake (Dali Super scooper) and Apexi Filter as far as performance gains? (Have std Exhaust Manifold and Cats but with a 5Sigen Exhaust). Is supercharging the best and cheapest way to extract more HP, have a 3000 cc engine?

Will the Targa Chassis be able to handle an extra 70 to 100 BHP?

Further to this, does anybody know the MoMo equivalent to the NSX-R OEM Steering Wheel and Boss. Part numbers or information that one could use to order.

Am look at some possible upgrades makes sense to start with Intake first!!

Some Helpful advice would be much appreciated!



Thanks

[NSXGB]

Further to this, does anybody know the MoMo equivalent to the NSX-R OEM Steering Wheel and Boss. Part numbers or information that one could use to order.



Momo Tuner is what you want, they can be bought from most of the usual outlets MSW, Demon Tweeks etc. for about £115. I don't think the boss is available from Honda any more but I could be wrong, there are cheaper alternatives out there though. Check out the Science of Speed website for a few.

[forumadmin]

Intake does nothing for performance.

Momo make the steering boss for the Type-R. You can't get the boss as a Momo part, only as a Honda part. They cost a lot, but can be got from Daliracing. There are other brands, the Taitec being one that you can still fit the wiring through for horn and cruise.

[AR]

(Have std Exhaust Manifold and Cats but with a 5Sigen Exhaust). Is supercharging the best and cheapest way to extract more HP, have a 3000 cc engine?



Best thing you can do for your car is get some equal lenght headers. A good set will start at about a grand plus install.

As for superchargers, I would suggest getting to know the car first.

Cheers,

AR

[Senninha]

Intake does nothing for performance.
I have heard and read this several times, however, when I changed the intake on my 3.2 (which had the H&S catback exhaust) it immediately felt smoother, more responsive and and felt to be revving more freely.

As for the steering wheel, check here for options http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96021

regards, Paul

[mutley]

BlueNSX has me in his avatar!!! How cool is that, finally recognition.

Anyhoo back on topic ref. air filters/induction. From my point of view, a decent filter on it's own will do very little if anything at all to performance, but when added in addition to a better exhaust, then there will be a little gain, if you make the car breath in easier, it has to be able to breath out easier. Hopefully when I finally decide what exhaust I want, I'll get a decent air filter too.

Jim

[BlueNSX]

Thanks For the Feed back
I was considering the
Dali - C/F intake scoop with the Apexi Filter and the conector to help the car breath does anyone on the forum have this ?

Exhaust-now thats a bit tricker, what are the best headers ? AR suggested EQUAL LENGTH HEADERS (Taitec) who make/sell the best bang for your buck as far as headers? Also do you keep the standard Cats (sorry to repeat a question asked in another thread)? Or Replace with higher flow units?

Senninha, thanks for the advice on steering wheels.

[AR]

Also do you keep the standard Cats (sorry to repeat a question asked in another thread)? Or Replace with higher flow units?

Barry from V-Tec direct ( on this board ) can get you a good deal on Taitec Headers.

As far as cats, it all depends on what you are after, hi flows are expensive, might as well get test pipes, and swap back as needed for test etc. You wont get much BHP on an otherwise stock NSX, but IMHO it sounds better, and revs better too.

Cheers,

AR

[jaytip]

How much difference does I/H/E/cats make in the real world? You could spend 2-3K on these modifications and get what,20-30 BHP if you are lucky? How much difference would those mods make on the road?Obviously everyone who spends that sort of outlay wants to believe that it makes a difference,but does it really?
Just curious.

Ivor.

[AR]

How much difference does I/H/E/cats make in the real world? You could spend 2-3K on these modifications and get what,20-30 BHP if you are lucky? How much difference would those mods make on the road?Obviously everyone who spends that sort of outlay wants to believe that it makes a difference,but does it really?
Just curious.

Ivor.

I feel the difference, the extra horses and weight reduction certainly help the car.

But YMMV.

Cheers,

AR

[goldnsx]

How much difference does I/H/E/cats make in the real world? You could spend 2-3K on these modifications and get what,20-30 BHP if you are lucky? How much difference would those mods make on the road?

In the real world it doesn't bring that much. I certainly feel a difference but it's far from night and day. On a 91-96 they're a MUST as you gain 20 hp for sure with H/E. And if you feel the car you should feed the 20 hp. On a 3.2 these mods are questionable, esp. the header.
One nice mod is the SOS chip if you do H/E, + 10 Nm.
I've once installed a CT exhaust and it felt more breathing than with the Remus. Also saw this on the dyno. But I went back to Remus as the CT was simply too loud and felt it was more restricted but not by much.

What is important is the hp/£ ratio.


Obviously everyone who spends that sort of outlay wants to believe that it makes a difference,but does it really?
Just curious.

Yes, I know these people. The more they 'invested' the better the car runs THEY CLAIM. They even get trapped by the wrong dyno proofs of part x versus stock. The intake is such a part. +4 hp they claim, haha, that's within the variance of the dyno machine. :no:

[jaytip]

I feel the difference, the extra horses and weight reduction certainly help the car.

But YMMV.

Cheers,

AR
Weight reduction yes,but i'm talking about just I/H/E.

[AR]

Weight reduction yes,but i'm talking about just I/H/E.

Is pretty much an aknowledge fact that the 3.0 exhaust manifolds are heavy and restricted. For me 20 BHP feels like a hell of a difference. I will venture out to say that if one was to put 3.0 manifolds on a 3.2 one would loose a lot of power and be on par with a stock 3.0.

[NSXGB]

Thanks For the Feed back
I was considering the
Dali - C/F intake scoop with the Apexi Filter and the conector to help the car breath does anyone on the forum have this ?



Don't see the point of the cf intake as it's not seen, Down Force do a FRP one for about £100 delivered to the UK which is a lot more reasonable and has to be just as good.

From what I've read, the OEM filter element has a decent flow to it and isn't worth changing.

I have done most of the mods you are asking about in stages and could not tell you whether the car has much more power (I would obviously hope so), but definitely noticed a more free revving engine along with the more exotic noise.
Definitely a slippery slope when you start...:)

[goldnsx]

From what I've read, the OEM filter element has a decent flow to it and isn't worth changing.

I'd stay with the OEM air filter too. For the intake, regardless if it's FRP, CF or even plastic, you won't see it installed anyway.

In general: I went through the more hp and the less weight scenario. And from what I've seen is that it's quite difficult to save weight. The header is a good example of giving more power but less weight. If you do the exhaust too you could gain there in both ways too. From that on it'll get hard to save weight unless you don't care about commodities like A/C, stereo or money.

[dan the man]

For me hearing Bazzas NSX today through a tunnel from my NSX with window is WHY I WANT A ZOST. THE FU*KING NOISE MAN :)

And with my car being a 3ltr a header would also certainly help a bit.


But personally if im gona spend money i think ill do brakes and braces first. Like i have done, R braces for the front and Front discs and pads upgraded etc. The see what else i can do like geometry, biggest and best thing i did on my DC5 was the geometry..changed the whole car so much.

[jamieburke]

I fitted a large K&N cone filter to my car today and it is no less responsive, no less powerful and sounds more fullsome on the throttle.

Takes a bit of getting used to, it really adds a baritone to the v6 drill effect, but i like it.

Don't think for one second its adding power, but it does feel snappy on the throttle inputs, as before, with a lovely noise to boot.

RE headers, I've asked this question in another thread- for my 3l car I think I'll def fit a set of manifolds, prob 3.2 ones if I can get hold of them. Can't see 6 pipes being a grands worth....This is my 5th honda and every single one has responded really well to a manifold and intake, so by all i've read the 3l nsx seems to be the same, you realease the 'latent' breathing potential of the engine....though i always tend to keep the standard back box.....don't know why!

Have mine polished at the minute with 02 tailpipes, and I love it....plus the only exhaust I'd want would be that bloody gruppe M...and its 2k....

Jamie

[AR]

Can't see 6 pipes being a grands worth...

Have mine polished at the minute with 02 tailpipes, and I love it....plus the only exhaust I'd want would be that bloody gruppe M...and its 2k....

Jamie

For most of us, the biggest expense of headers is the install. If one is going thru all the trouble, why not get the best headers in the first place. As proven by a few cars on Prime, even 3.2s benefit from headers.

As to the OEM exhaust, it really strangles the system and is heavy.

There are other great exhaust apart from the Gruppe M, I find the Ti GT Rom to be my favourite.

As for the big open filters, they are "Hot Air Intakes", I would suggest making some sort of shield from the engine temperature.

Cheers,

AR

[BlueNSX]

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=2104

I think this is the filter system I will use. High flow, not open to engine heat & keeps everything looking std.

AR Thanks for the contact for the Headers.

[Kevin]

For those thinking of going to 3.2 manifolds....

Bear in mind the 3.0 exhaust will not fit it. You can get adapter pipes to allow the 3.0 exahust to fit, but you will still need 3.2 cats or 3.2 bypass pipes. With both of these aftermarket additions, the variations in size add up, the exhaust may not hang centrally anymore.

[AR]

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=2104

I think this is the filter system I will use. High flow, not open to engine heat & keeps everything looking std.

AR Thanks for the contact for the Headers.

I think a member of the board lost a few horses with that box on the dyno day thread.

[AR]

For those thinking of going to 3.2 manifolds....

Bear in mind the 3.0 exhaust will not fit it. You can get adapter pipes to allow the 3.0 exahust to fit, but you will still need 3.2 cats or 3.2 bypass pipes. With both of these aftermarket additions, the variations in size add up, the exhaust may not hang centrally anymore.

So it will probably save money to go with 3.0 headers.

Unless one is getting the parts fro free. :)

Cheers,

AR

[BlueNSX]

So it will probably save money to go with 3.0 headers.

Unless one is getting the parts fro free. :)

Cheers,

AR

Surely you mean aftermarket ?? and how could you loose HP with a high flow filter.

PS YMMV?, IMHO? :eek:

[AR]

Surely you mean aftermarket ?? and how could you loose HP with a high flow filter.

PS YMMV?, IMHO? :eek:

Apparently according to the dyno Paul's NSX lost power with the Dali Apexi filter. The OEM is near perfect.

As Kevin stated, on top of the 3.2 manifolds, you will need adapters, test pipes or cats, and a back box.

So the 3.0 Aftermarket headers will work out cheaper as cats are very expensive.

Cheers,

AR

[BlueNSX]

[quote=AR;36346]Apparently according to the dyno Paul's NSX lost power with the Dali Apexi filter. The OEM is near perfect.

As Kevin stated, on top of the 3.2 manifolds, you will need adapters, test pipes or cats, and a back box.

So the 3.0 Aftermarket headers will work out cheaper as cats are very expensive.

Cheers,

Got IT TAITECH 3.0l Headers - With Cats = +20 hp or test pipes ((Barry ? / Dirk ? ) do they work for the same company? V-Tec direct)).

Thanks

[BlueNSX]

I have heard and read this several times, however, when I changed the intake on my 3.2 (which had the H&S catback exhaust) it immediately felt smoother, more responsive and and felt to be revving more freely.

As for the steering wheel, check here for options http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96021

regards, Paul

Hi Paul,

what intake system do you use? and how did it perferm on dyno-day?

Best Regards

[BlueNSX]

BlueNSX has me in his avatar!!! How cool is that, finally recognition.

Anyhoo back on topic ref. air filters/induction. From my point of view, a decent filter on it's own will do very little if anything at all to performance, but when added in addition to a better exhaust, then there will be a little gain, if you make the car breath in easier, it has to be able to breath out easier. Hopefully when I finally decide what exhaust I want, I'll get a decent air filter too.

Jim

I'm Glad you liked it.

[Senninha]

Hi Paul,

what intake system do you use? and how did it perferm on dyno-day?

Best Regards
I have the Procar CF intake airbox and associated intake scoop which houses the conical Apexi filter.

Does it add power ... maybe. As I've said previously in other threads, what this system did do was to smooth out the overall performance and allowed all to breath well.

Dyno day performance was a success for me as my NSX produced the best BHP results on the day.

One added benefit for me over other systems available is how good it looks inthe engine bay.

HTH, regards Paul

[Procar Specials]

The Honda Racing guys here in Germany installed that system at their 3.2l
engine in combination with headers and exhaust.
The difference was 12 HP+ at the dyno with that Procar intake system

Our NSX was dynoed with 301 HP without and 312 HP with that system,
not sure if thats a power increase.

The airbox is bigger than standard (+28%), the dry APEXI filter is the best one at the market.

This is the system.
http://nsxcb.co.uk/testvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=2723&d=1189320388

Years before we produced some airboxes for Daliand the super succer boig gulp, which he named it at his webside.
Years later he tried to fix that APEXI filter into the standard airbox.
This will not work, we tested it.

[goldnsx]

+12 hp?! Should this mean that the OEM air intake is the bottle-neck? Actually I don't believe this +12 hp. Is there an explanation for this?

[jaytip]

+12 hp?! Should this mean that the OEM air intake is the bottle-neck? Actually I don't believe this +12 hp. Is there an explanation for this?
I don't think Detlef is saying it is a stand alone 12+ BHP gain,it is when combined with H+E.

Ivor.

[Procar Specials]

I don't think Detlef is saying it is a stand alone 12+ BHP gain,it is when combined with H+E.

Ivor.

Exactly, thanks Igor.

The airbox works best with 'opened' exhaust system .

We can drive my car next year at the N'ring and stand it onto the dyno.

Here is our reference
http://www.boemanns.de/4-frameset.htm
www.taschenrakete.net/honda/nsx/procar-specials-nsx.wmv
http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/5576LMP_1.gif

[jaytip]

Exactly, thanks Igor.
Your wish is my command Dr Frankenstein:bigsmile::bigsmile:;)

[AR]

I am almost sure most of the power is from the headers and exhaust.

Cheers,

AR

[Procar Specials]

I am almost sure most of the power is from the headers and exhaust.

Right regarding 3.0 engines, not right regarding 3.2l engines.

Nevertheless, my car with 3.0 engine was dynoed with 301 HP without and 312 HP with that system, not sure if thats a power increase.

(301 HP with Mugen headers, exhaust, MUGEN ECU, 312 HP all + intake kit)

The video shows the car with 3.0 l engine.

All 2 NSX-R race cars uses our system, it has a reason why Honda spent that money.

[BlueNSX]

Right regarding 3.0 engines, not right regarding 3.2l engines.

Nevertheless, my car with 3.0 engine was dynoed with 301 HP without and 312 HP with that system, not sure if thats a power increase.

(301 HP with Mugen headers, exhaust, MUGEN ECU, 312 HP all + intake kit)

The video shows the car with 3.0 l engine.

All 2 NSX-R race cars uses our system, it has a reason why Honda spent that money.




How Much For the Mugen Headers and ECU?


How Much for the Intake system ?

Do you have a copy of the dyno results that you can post ?


Does anybody know where to get the above from at reasonable prices ?

Are the Mugen headers better than The Taitec Ones ?

Thanks

[AR]

Are the Mugen headers better than The Taitec Ones ?

Thanks

Yes they are probably better, but is it worth an extra 2K?

[NSXGB]

Yes they are probably better, but is it worth an extra 2K?

If they are, I'm sure it would be only a handfull of horses, so as AR quite rightly points out, not much extra bang for your buck....

[jaytip]

If they are, I'm sure it would be only a handfull of horses, so as AR quite rightly points out, not much extra bang for your buck....
Bit of a can of worms this,because would not aftermarket headers only release a handfull of horses over the standard factoy ones? As you say,not much extra bang for your buck.
This is why i posted the question earlier.Is the amount of gain you would get really worth spending about 3K on I/H/E.Personaly i don't think so.

[Procar Specials]

Well, there are lot of people here who have experience with mods.
But I'm not sure if someone ever had installed MUGEN headers or ECU or combinations like that.


How Much For the Mugen Headers and ECU?
The MUGEN headers are no longer available,
the ECU is 1200 Euro


How Much for the Intake system ?
The complete Procar carbonfiber intake system is 1200 Euro


Do you have a copy of the dyno results that you can post ?
Already did that 1 side before, also a dyno video.
This was recorded with my NA1 engine.


Does anybody know where to get the above from at reasonable prices ?
YES :)


Are the Mugen headers better than The Taitec Ones ?
YES Sir, they are, but the best bang for the buck is the Taitec.


Thanks
DE RIEN


If they are, I'm sure it would be only a handfull of horses, so as AR quite rightly points out, not much extra bang for your buck....
Thats right, but its the only way without open the engine.
If you start to do that....its getting very expensive.


Is the amount of gain you would get really worth spending about 3K on I/H/E.Personaly i don't think so.
My opinion is a definitive yes.
Makes a feelable difference. Think I can say that, but its only my opinion.
Other factors like weight reduction and best wheel size are also very important.
Finally its a combo of all, but it cost lots of money, thats right.

[AR]

I had Mugen headers and a Mugen ECU on the NSX-R. I did not like that the Mugen ECU Increased the rev limiter to? I could not, or should I say did not want to find out. As for the Headers, I doubt there is more than 5 hp difference from Taitec to Mugen, nice thing about them is the heathshields, BTW they are still available.

Here is a nice graph of the Taitec:

http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/exhaust_airflow_products/NSX/TAITEC/exhaust_headers/default.asp

Cheers,

AR

[goldnsx]

Isn't it that you loose your A/C with the MUGEN ECU?

[Procar Specials]

Isn't it that you loose your A/C with the MUGEN ECU?
Not at the version MUGEN developed for the 93 GT car.


doubt there is more than 5 hp difference from Taitec to Mugen
5 HP as difference is a lot for headers only.
Its also a difference in torque, maybe you have seen that there are ~316 NM


BTW they are still available.
Where? You seems to know more than me ;)

[AR]

The 5 hp will more than likely be dyno related, I really doubt there is that much difference. They feel and sound the same to me.

As for where to buy them:

http://www.kingmotorsports.com/category.aspx?cat=63

Bet you can't put an NSX-R sticker on them! :)

Cheers,

AR

[Procar Specials]

Bet you can't put an NSX-R sticker on them!
Mine came with that, yours not ?
You must have had a very old part than :)

I can say that there is a difference, even if you doubt.
MUGEN headers are by far the best, thats fact.

[AR]

Mine came with that, yours not ?
You must have had a very old part than :)

All your parts come with that LOL, have you calculate the Performance Downgrage from the extra weight of the stickers???

I am just joking with you I bought parts from you before, and your parts are expensive, but top notch!

Cheers,

AR

[Procar Specials]

All your parts come with that LOL, have you calculate the Performance Downgrage from the extra weight of the stickers???

The stickers are lighter than air.
My problem is that the most customers wanna have these stickers,
even the parts for the Honda race guys must have these.
Procar Specials = cf parts + Type R parts (specialist) :)

But there are still parts without that available.

Look here......

[Procar Specials]

some more ;)

[TURBO2GO]

I would just add that on my 2005 3.2 liter, I gained 113 HP on the same dyno in the same conditions with the addition of a Comptech Supercharger and a GT-One F1 header and V5.0 exhaust system. According to Comptech the gain should be close to 75-80P. Somehow, I gained 35 or so horsepower OVER what this car should have had with a Comptech exhaust and Comptech headers. I don't know how, but I attribute a good amount of this to nothing except what I think is the best header available, including the Mugen or Fujitsubo.

A lot of times the term "equal length" is used, but all they are reffering to are equal length tubes on one bank of cylinders, and equal length on the second bank. The two banks actually are NOT equal, so the left 3 cylinders and the right 3 cylinders are actually seeing different length pipes. As far as I know, and I may be wrong on this, the GT-One F1 is the only header I have seen that has true equal length on all 6 tubes.

It was $3,000 for the header alone, but to me it was worth it for the incredible sound (I have heard this same exhaust with different headers and it does not sound the same) and the significant HP gains.

I think it is clear by now that if you have a 3.0 liter engine you will make large gains changing that horrible exhaust manifold. On a 3.2 your gains will be a lot smaller, in some cases none. The 3.2 factory manifold is excellent. I sold mine with 3000 miles on it for a mere $300, that's a fantastic deal to someone especially when you get OEM quality.

As far as intakes, a lot of people think that an open element intake sucks in a lot of hot air from the engine bay... this is true only at idle. When the car is moving at anything above 30MPH the engine bay temp in the NSX drops dramaticaly and is almost equal to ambient. There was a thread somehwhere on this from a guy on prime that actually ran tests on this.

I think Procar's approach to getting a larger airbox is a good one, generally the airbox itself is more restrictive than the element. I know that on my Mercedes CL600 the gain with a filter was nothing and the gain with the Renntech airbox was close to 40 HP. I talked to Hartmut Feyl (owner of Renntech and head of AMG for 19 years) about this and he said in general airboxes are the bottleneck not the filters.

Here is the F1 header for those not familiar:

http://www.gtoneusa.com/product_info.php?cPath=45&products_id=45