The second hand market

[Papalazarou]

Just looking through AT today and was interested to see the prices of sports cars 'like' the NSX.

Obviously this is a debate in itself, but for arguments sake I chose;

Porsche 993,996 and Boxster.
Ferrari 348,355


Anyway, it made me wonder whether the 911 is a modern investment when there are 509 to choose from on AT and that's between £22.5 and £35K? You'd think that the sheers availability would drive the price down considerably, but still they 'appear' to hold their value well after a certain point.

However, whilst the early 996's suffer a bit the 993 still seems to fetch pretty good money; £38K good for the right car or so they're advertised.

Boxsters, all 1438 of them also fair quite well (if they're selling) considering there are so many, but there seem to be a glut of 986's and 987's don't seem that bouyant.
Ferrari 348's are quite scarce, around 14 for sale on AT, in contrast to 65 355's. Interestingly, the 355's now start at £34K whilst an early 348 can be had for £22.5K.

At the moment there are 7 NSX's on AT. The normal mix of autos, imports and mid 90's coupes.

It made me think that although the NSX is obviously much rarer than the cars above, one of the reasons it appeals less to some buyers is because there are so few variants (bar Japan) compared say porsche where there are many different wheel choices, trim levels and colours.
Don't get me wrong I really like the NSX but there's never been much choice. I think that people enjoy trying to find the right car and that's hard to do when there are only 7!
furthermore, I've never seen an NSX for sale that looked that good in the photo. When I looked for one originally, I really couldn't get my head around the proportions (no jokes please).

One more comment; you always hear road testers and forum junkies siting 'a dated interior' for not choosing an NSX. Why do we never hear that about Porsches of the same era? I really like the look of the 993, but inside it looks like a Healey/Mk1 escort cross....with a Passat steering wheel.


Cheers, discuss, rip me apart if you can find an argumant in there somewhere??!!#;-)

[AR]

I love the NSX, it's lines look better with the pop ups than the revised look IMHO.

But look at this:

http://www.channel4.com/4car/gl/gallery/gallery/511/

Just one of many of the classic lines.


Cheers,

Ary

[Papalazarou]

I've seen those before. The Bizzarini is an awesome looking car.



Cheers,


James.

[AR]

I never seen one in the metal, but there is something about old cars that goes beyond 0-60 numbers. The NSX is approaching that status. :)

[Steveycaz]

Interior's a bit dated!

[britlude]

I've seen 2, a road going one regularly parked in the pre-66 public carpark at Goodwood revival, and a race one was a regular, until it was written off racing on the sunday race last september.....

before....(or more accurately 'during')
http://k53.pbase.com/o6/91/460891/1/84915980.1qiOH7xh.IMGP1126web.jpg

after.. bow your heads, show some respect....

http://i.pbase.com/o6/91/460891/1/84915989.E0ezel8W.IMGP1139web.jpg

they had to chop the roof off to extract the driver (Martin Stretton) who broke his elbow wiping out an estimated £2.5M car!!!! by the way, it was the first one made, the original!!!! oops!


anyway back to the original topic...... why are NSX's not so 'popular', although rarer....??? it hasn't got a porsche or ferrari badge on the front, it's as simple as that! there's a certain snob value involved, making a practical, comfortable, useable sportscar/supercar that doesn't break down every 5 minutes ( that's if it even started in the first place) just isn't good enough!

as for 'dated' interior, i prefer 'classic', 'functional', 'as it should be', it's not dated!!!

[TheSebringOne]

Talking about beautiful, classic & timeless body lines, heres one of my fave cars!

http://www.seriouswheels.com/1970-1979/1972-Lamborghini-Miura-SV-Red-SA.htm

Another!

http://www.lamborghiniregistry.com/Miura/MiuraSV/4870.html

[Senninha]

James,

SO this is what you were doing instead of hooning around with the rest of us yesterday ;)

Ok, I've read your first post a couple of times and what appears to jump of the page for me are two things, pricing and volume.

On the pricing it is clear to see that the advertised prices for the models in question from both Porcshe and ferrari are steadily dropping. However, because a large number of these cars will be dealer advertised, this is inflating the prices that they are actually selling for.

Compare this to NSX pricing over the last 18 months. Clean early cars are still marketing and selling for high teens, occasionally breaking the £20k. The later facelift cars have been steady around the high 30's to mid 40's. The 3.2 pop-ups are still a rarely advertised car but generally sell quickly if the right condition/color/history.

Onto the volume and as Jon says, its largely a badge thing. Many aspirational owners of sportscars/supercars are only looking to own a F or P badged car. IMO (and the bit I probably get flamed for) the majority are not true driving enthusiasts but simply buying because their finances allow them too.

Back to the NSX and in my experience, people are buying the car having been a keen 'driving' enthusiast for many years or have come through the ranks of Honda's sporting / R variants.

In some ways the motoring press have done us a favour. By complaining that the NSX is too easy to drive, too reliable, too practicable and etc, they have turned the hairdressers and merchant bankers from our doors and sent them to the high cost ownership of the other marques. This in turn resulted in the lower sales volumes, <500 into the UK I think. Deduct those cars lost in accidents, poorly maintained or converted to track day weapons and there are probably less than 400 straight NSX left on the roads.

As for choice, well thats an easy one to finish on. If its from Italy then it should be red with cream leather. If german then it depends on the model. 993/6's always work well in the darker colors whereas the cockster seems to look more palatable in lighter colors. Scan the classified's and you will see pricing trends follow these unwritten rules.

So to the NSX and its limited choice. Lets be honest, there isn't a bad color combination in the UK (except blue leather IMHO), so the color choice is easy. Decide what you cannot live with, then accept all others. Do you want PAS? No, look for early cars, yes then 95's onwards. Auto vs manual. If its a daily then grab a bargain auto otherwise you're looking for a manual. Probably the hardest 'option' to find these days appears to be the T-top. I'd guess the only other option is around the history of the car. With so many 'new' NSX coming out from hiding over the past 2 years, its likely that someone somewhere knows the history of a car. Add this knowledge to any history the NSX is supplied with and the last option you have is to buy or not to buy........

I seem to have got a bit involved in this one so time to sign off .... long may the debate and NSX ownership continue....

regards, Paul

[markdas]

I guess the starting price on launch was seen as very high for a Honda but in comparisson to the cars it was pitched against in ability and styling it was a cheap option at the time.

The Honda badge for 65K is always mentioned too I think, as is the dated interior! When the idiots like Needel slate a Ferrari for something stupid....the sheer power of the Ferrari history makes people ignore it....with a Honda I imagine people tend to only see this as a failing and a shortfall in Honda attempt to beat the competition....in actual fact they must have achieved handling, reliability and useablilty in the NSX that was just not appreciated until many years later.

When I first started thinking about an NSX (my wife actually found the article in one of our many books) and I instantly thought that they must be highly strung, tempermental, old experimental cars that never caught on.......it takes actually talking to owners and listening to real life experiences to realise just how revolutionary and successful they are....Dont you think that maybe they have reached their bottom end prices and may well increase even if or when a new one comes out? The NA1/NA2 will always have that little bit more history in terms of the Honda F1 team at the time, Sennas input and testing and the fact that Honda sucessfully took on Ferrari and Porchse and achieved their aim?

Probably get more people buying NSX''s to use rather than store.....I even think its safer to leave the NSX in a car park at Tescos than it is our Audi Allroad! People seem to admire and wonder what the hell it is rather than have this envy or distaste at a Ferrari or Lambo badge.

Just my thoughts
Mark

[simonprelude]

Hopefully a good NSX will never fall below £10k, if it does then there's something seriously wrong with the economy, or taxes have made running one of these only for the people who can afford Ferrari / Porsche running costs.

[cas]

Greetings gentlemen! I don't think anybody buys a supercar because they are worried about resale values - I think it is because they want to drive one. Low secondhand values mean that you can buy another when your current one is worn out - how is this bad? I have owned a Maserati Merak for 11 years and the complaint in the Maserati Club is that it was unfair that Maseratis where worth less than half of Ferraris whereas it actually is an advantage. In the last couple years Maserati values have increased all this means is that most people will never get the chance to own and drive one even if they have some money because they are out of reach to most enthusiats. When you are comparing brands it is important to compare like with like, for example, 1 dealer and a 2 years waiting list to have your classic Maserati repaired compared with hundreds of dealers and no waiting lists for Ferrari. Ferrari have a policy of supplying any part no matter how old your Ferrari is compared to Maserati policy of flogging all the old parts to Campana and dumping any owner pre 1999. For example, the hydrolic headlight high pressure switch on my Merak - unavailable for 20 years - got so fed up I have had it remanufactured for myself! Even Bill McGraths could not sort it out in 20 years. (I was a control engineer many years ago).

if you look at the secondhand values of NSX's you could easily have a Ferrari if you want a badge that much, but whats the point, everyman and his dog has one! After owning a Merak for 9 years I decided I wanted another car and I chose an NSX. When I bought my Merak it was with my heart but when I bought the NSX it was with my brain - and I have never regretted it - the Merak on the other hand.....

With any luck I will be at the Bristol Italian car day on Saturday with my Merak if you want further impressions of owning both say hello...

On a final note the gentleman who is organising the Italian Car festival would also like an NSX maybe we know something about classic italian cars that most people don't! the pain, the pain ...

[markc]

Hey cas,

I'm at Bristol tomorrow in a 1964 Alfa Guilia Spider, Blue and Right hand drive. I'm booked in to park in the "Blue" area.

What colour is your Merak and what area are booked into? I'm looking forward to see all the lovely machinery that'll be on show :)

Personally I'd love to own a Bora... ohh and a Ghibli, the 60's one obviously.

Lets gang up on the organiser and talk NSX's with him :)

Cheers

Mark

[TheQuietOne]

Where and what time does this get underway? I'd have to hide the NSX but might be interested in a morning visit to this...Oh I suppose I have a Tubi so maybe that counts?!

[cas]

Hi mark

I will be in the green area - entry no 201 the name is Claudio

The Bora is a great car but I once met an owner at Supercar Sunday (Gaydon) who had just bought a Bora and said that having got close to my Merak he preferred it! I said he should have bought one and saved himself alot of money! The truth is that the Merak is more stiking and better balanced than the Bora, so if you are rushing across country there is little difference and if the lanes are really winding the Merak has the edge. The other little known fact about the Merak is that they have one of the best sounding engines of any Maserati as I can demonstate for you tomorrow!

As for your 1964 spider they are simply beautiful and I would love to be shown round one!

Hope to see you there.


Claudio

[cas]

Hi

It is rosso corsa with black interior.

Claudio

[markdas]

Who wants a VW Bora???

How did W get away with actually using the BORA name then???

[markdas]

Who wants a VW Bora???

How did W get away with actually using the BORA name then???

[markc]

The car sounds lovely Claudio, I'll try and find you at some point tomorrow. I'll be parked at Blue 10.

Mark... both Maserati and VW like to use the names of winds.. Bora, Scirocco, Mistral, Ghibli, Shamal... err BiTurbo ;) Ford (and Kawasaki) bagged Zephyr.

I guess Maserati forgot to trademark the name Bora for the use in car names.

It's an all day event with the roads where the cars are displayed closed between 11am and 4pm. The weather is supposed to be quite nice tomorrow so it should be good :)

Cheers

Mark

[dan the man]

ive always hated older 911 dashboards :(

[TheSebringOne]

Paul, I would love to be hooning around with you guys! Shame you all live down South and lifes a bit hectic/stressfull at present, so keeping my replies short & snappy! I get married in a week ! :eek: :)

[Silver Surfer]

Married in a week!?!

Should be able to make Mattfest then! ;)

SS

[TheSebringOne]

Mattfest sounds tempting, but not quite as tempting as the Maldives & Dubai ! :D Sorry I won't be able to make it to Castle Coome this year as on the other side of the planet :(

[donnac]

:) Having just had my NSX for 2 months i am loving it and just last weekend i took her for a normal weekend drive but this time i didnt want to park her up as i didnt want to stop driving her. That is the first time i have had that experience in 25 years and my previous cars wore the F badge apart from an Atom (which i wrote off and led me to buy an NSX to sample a different type of car!!!). I feel i will have my NSX for life and that is the only car that i have felt that kind of feelings towards. I agree that badges may represent the car in a picture but when it comes to driving and having something different 10 out of 10 to the NSX. Just last weekend i had two people flash (their lights) me at a junction and lights to say ''I love NSXs''.

Happy motoring all.

[Senninha]

:) Having just had my NSX for 2 months i am loving it ....................I feel i will have my NSX for life and that is the only car that i have felt that kind of feelings towards.

Happy motoring all.

I'm wondering what impact this might have on the market if more and more people are talking about NSX ownership being a long term relationship......

New owners are prepared to wait to find the best they can which is leaving some cars on sale but unsold for longer periods. The result to me looks like clean well doc'd cars selling for strong numbers but opening a bigger ££gap

Anyone else seeing this pattern emerging?

regards, Paul

[simonprelude]

Not yet as the cars that have been for sale for a long time are not getting discounted (well most of them aren't) it just shows that some cars sell quickly, others don't.

Not sure why a few are hanging around on these boards unsold, they are well priced honestly described cars.



Anyone else seeing this pattern emerging?