NSX vs Boxster S... IMO

[Lankstarr]

I've had my NSX for over 2 years and my wife brought a Boxster S recently as her last "fun" car before our baby is due in December. As my NSX is on holiday (watch this space;)) I'm currently using the Boxster so have written up a comparison.

Handling
The Boxster handles very well... but is not as planted as the NSX. The Boxster is very tail happy without the PSM switched on and where I'd expect the NSX to grip whilst pulling out of a junction I was surprised to find myself almost sideways in the Boxster! Maybe it has something to do with the tyres.

My favourite corner in BAsingstoke can be taken at 80 in the NSX, although the Boxster feels planted, I don't feel confident enough in it to push over 65. Believe me that's a big difference on this corner! That could be down to lack of experience in the Boxster but I couldn't see myself ever going round there like I do in the X.

Interior
The Boxster is a 2003 model so comparable in price to an early NSX, I'm not sure what the interiors are like on the newest ones but...

We all know think the NSX interior is dated but I was surprised at just how dated and plasticy the Boxster interior was - as it shares a lot of the Carrera and Cayman parts (even the Cayman's rear lights:eek:) I would have thought other Porsches are the same.

The only up to date bit is seats and the large colour Sat Nav, I expected more TBH.

The Boxster is small! I really struggle to fit being 6"5 but manage to squeeze into the NSX without too much complaint. The seat doesn't go back anywhere near far enough and my knee wedges between the steering wheel and centre console. There is loads of head room when the roof is off though!

SPEED & SOUND
The most important category for many but I think there's no competition in either of these categories. That said, the Boxster S is fast, reaches 100 in third and sounds great... it's just not an NSX!

Looks
Despite being common as muck I like the looks, having a facelift model helps a lot due to the revised lights. The one we have has Xenons which I think make a huge difference to the look (when switched on!).

The Boxster is red with a black roof which also helps a lot, it looks like a nice sports car rather than a super car though.

There are other types of looks as well and this is what really puts me off the Porsche. We all know how good it feels to see someone walking past your NSX and pointing and smiling or giving you the thumbs up when you're on the road but you get quite the opposite in the Porsche! Quite a lot of looks to say you c:angry:ckster... especially when I'm driving to work at 7am with the roof off:laugh:

I do love being able to take the roof off ... but then it's no secret I've always wanted a Targa!

That's all I've got - the Boxster is now up for sale and will be replaced by an estate. I brought an RS4 to try but it's just too thirsty and too old (and the key thing is it's not red) for my wife. I will say one thing though it's VERY fast and feels quicker than the NSX due to the momentum it must be carrying! I need to get rid of at least one of these before I get the family wagon, I currently like the look of a 05 shape S4 in red (and more to the point so does my wife) but can't stomoch the depreciation at the moment. That is a big plus about an RS4 - they hardly depreciate if you're buying at about 18k.

L*

[markc]

Hi Luke, interesting comments.

I've also been amazed at the traction my NSX has. Coming from a P993 (rear engine) and an Imprezza Turbo (4wd) prior to the NSX I expected this to be lacking in this department but somehow the NSX is brilliant in this area. I've hardly ever triggered the TCS, and yes it does definately work :)

How would you compare and contrast the steering feel/weight/feedback going back and forth between the two cars? This (steering) is of course the most critisised part of the NSX and with Porsche (all models) usually be the yardstick by which others are judged.

It's a long while since I did the same between my old 993 and the NSX or indeed drove a Boxster but I do remember this being one of the most striking differances. The 993 had particularly lovely steering but the rest of the chassis took a bit (a lot) of getting used to. In contrast the NSX has such a nice neutral chassis that the steering could be said to be a bit of a let down.

In theory the Boxster/Caymen chassis/steering should give the best of both worlds ie Porsche steering feel and mid engined chassis balance, and indeed many road test reviews do single the car/s out for exactly this.

Cheers

Mark

Ohh - Which model RS4 are you talking about, V6T or V8? I can assure you the NSX is not slower than the latter even in a straight line ;)

[simonprelude]

Very interesting, I drove a friends 986S a few years ago back to back with my S2000 and only noticed a marginal difference between the 2.
The steering feedback in the S2000 was far better than the Boxster and just seemed more planted in every way, there was no way I could justify the huge price difference.
When going between the S2000 and NSX the steering is the thing that dissapoints me, but the huge difference in driveability, acceleration and fun makes it all worthwhile.
I'm still looking for a bargain of a non PAS early NSX so I can have the best of both worlds, shame you can't get a Targa version :)

[Ferris Bueller]

I drove a friends 996S a few years ago back

986? Or did you mean a 911?

[NoelWatson]

FWIW in Autocar 2002 handling day the Boxster came second, NSX 5th (marked down for steering and brakes) and 996 7th. Doesn't that vintage of Boxster have problems with RMS?

[simonprelude]

986? Or did you mean a 911?

Yes, all these numbers got too much for me.

[Papalazarou]

986 is the prefix for the older Boxster the new one's a 987.

Cheers,


James.

P.s, I had a Boxster S for a while. I'd have to disagree with the comments made regarding steering between the Boxster and the S2000. I thought the Box' steering was fantastic and superior to the S2000. However, at high speeds on bumpy roads it was a bit of a handful.
With refeence to the cabin, the Boxster (986) shared 40% of it's parts with the 911 (996).

[simonprelude]

I thought the Box' steering was fantastic and superior to the S2000. However, at high speeds on bumpy roads it was a bit of a handful.

That's probably why I didn't like it ;)

[markc]

The steering feedback in the S2000 was far better than the Boxster and just seemed more planted in every way, there was no way I could justify the huge price difference.
When going between the S2000 and NSX the steering is the thing that dissapoints me, but the huge difference in driveability, acceleration and fun makes it all worthwhile.

Hmmm... Our S2000 ownership overlapped both my P993 and NSX. IMHO the S2K had nothing like as nice steering as the 993. Compared to the NSX (mine has EPS) the S2K steering is lighter, much faster but possibly has even less feedback. Our S2K was very "pointy", almost TVR like. It also had pretty poor traction compared to both the 993 and NSX. Don't get me wrong I loved it but "planted" is not a word I use to descibe it.

Every Boxster I drive impresses me by being sharper and generally "harder" (I don't mean suspension stiffness) than I remember. The popularist opinion that it's a "hairdressers car" lulls you into thinking its like an XR3i Cab but actually it's a class act, particularly in S form.


I'm still looking for a bargain of a non PAS early NSX so I can have the best of both worlds, shame you can't get a Targa version :)

Have you driven PAS and non PAS NSX's back to back recently? IMHO a non PAS NSX isn't going to do this for you. The steering is no faster, it's heavier at low speed and weights up even more when you get some lock on. You might get a bit more feedback on rougher roads if that what you're missing. Anyone tried PAS non PAS cars back to back then pulled the EPS fuse on the PAS car and tried it for a third comparison?

Cheers

Mark

[NoelWatson]

Hmmm... Our S2000 ownership overlapped both my P993 and NSX. IMHO the S2K had nothing like as nice steering as the 993. Compared to the NSX (mine has EPS) the S2K steering is lighter, much faster but possibly has even less feedback. Our S2K was very "pointy", almost TVR like. It also had pretty poor traction compared to both the 993 and NSX. Don't get me wrong I loved it but "planted" is not a word I use to descibe it.

Every Boxster I drive impresses me by being sharper and generally "harder" (I don't mean suspension stiffness) than I remember. The popularist opinion that it's a "hairdressers car" lulls you into thinking its like an XR3i Cab but actually it's a class act, particularly in S form.



Have you driven PAS and non PAS NSX's back to back recently? IMHO a non PAS NSX isn't going to do this for you. The steering is no faster, it's heavier at low speed and weights up even more when you get some lock on. You might get a bit more feedback on rougher roads if that what you're missing. Anyone tried PAS non PAS cars back to back then pulled the EPS fuse on the PAS car and tried it for a third comparison?

Cheers

Mark

"then pulled the EPS fuse on the PAS car and tried it for a third comparison?"

Is there a risk of damage in doing this? If not I may remove it to see the difference.

[Papalazarou]

I've driven a PAS with car without PAS and it was pretty slow and heavy.

I've also driven early PAS vs late PAS and the later car feels faster and more fluent, I believe they did tweak the steering on the later cars.

I've also driven pas and non-pas back to back and I have to say, I prefer the PAS. You don't seem to lose any steering feedback with PAS and it's a lot lighter at low speed and parking. I didn't dislike the non-pas feel, I just didn't prefer it.


Cheers,


James.

[Monaco92]

The popularist opinion that it's a "hairdressers car" lulls you into thinking its like an XR3i Cab but actually it's a class act, particularly in S form.

Oi nothing wrong with XR3i Cab. I've got one and it pulls:D

[markc]

Oi nothing wrong with XR3i Cab. I've got one and it pulls:D

Sorry Monaco, I'm sure it's lovely but you've got admit they're not the last word in performance or chassis dynamics. It must the good looking dude behind the wheel that pulls :)

Noel, I don't believe running the car without power to the EPS will damage anything. US Zanardi editions used the EPS rack without the power/control units. I suspect Type S (spec'd san EPS) and S Zero's did the same, maybe even NA2 NSX-R's?

In theory, when deprived of power, the "slower" around the straight ahead variable rate EPS rack will make initial turn in lighter but then as the rack gets "faster" is will weight up more than the non variable ratio manual rack.

Here's how it works... http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Electric_Power_Steering

Mark

[Lankstarr]

Hi Mark,

TBH I haven't really noticed a difference in steering... but then I wasn't looking out for anything - I'll have to have a think next time I have a drive. When I fishtailed the boxster up the road I did think the steering reacted very well and I didn't feel in danger of losing it. I've never and don't think will ever be able to do that in the NSX unless it's wet and the tyres are bold... and then I wouldn't want to try!

I have driven a 91 back to back with mine and thought the 91 felt better in terms of steering around tight corners. It was heavy in car parks but I could live with that. I've been told that the PAS switches off in the later cars above 30 so shouldn't have felt any difference... but I would still say the '91 felt better in it's steering.

I didn't really test the TCS on the '91 I had but Kevin thinks the TCS was vastly improved on the later cars. If I were recommending a Boxster S to someone (which I would if they cut hair:laugh:) then I'd definitely say to look for a model with PSM.

The RS4 is the early, twin turbo model. When my NSX was stock I had a few runs against my brother in one:
Understandably the RS4 was quicker off the lights (apparently quicker to 30 than a Maclaren F1?!) but after that it was neck and neck all the way up to XXX. Id say the NSX would have taken over at higher speeds due to aerodynamics and the increased wind resistance associated with higher speeds... but it's a long time since I did physics and I wouldn't want to test it against my crazy brother!

I would like to repeat the test now I think I'm pushing 10% more power... hopefully enough to plug the initial gap and some.

Cheers,

Luke*



How would you compare and contrast the steering feel/weight/feedback going back and forth between the two cars? This (steering) is of course the most critisised part of the NSX and with Porsche (all models) usually be the yardstick by which others are judged.

Ohh - Which model RS4 are you talking about, V6T or V8? I can assure you the NSX is not slower than the latter even in a straight line ;)

[Monaco92]

Thanks Mark that makes me feel sooo much better.:cool:

Just to add my 2p worth. I recently met someone who bought a new RS4 after he'd spun his M3 in the rain (with his kids in the car and at modest speed). Any way after I took him out in the X he said it definately felt faster than both the M3 and the RS4. This really surprised me as I thought the RS4 would have been quicker. But he insisted the X pulled stronger.

[Ferris Bueller]

This really surprised me as I thought the RS4 would have been quicker. But he insisted the X pulled stronger.

This was validated in an independent test on a suitable stretch of tarmac last week when an NSX NA2 proved to be quicker than the previous gen RS4 Avant. Much to the annoyance of the Audi driver :cool:

I've driven the E46 and E92 M3s and the V8 RS4. Only the E92 would be quicker than the NSX IMO - it's absolutely monstrous over the last 2k rpm.

[markc]

I have driven a 91 back to back with mine and thought the 91 felt better in terms of steering around tight corners. It was heavy in car parks but I could live with that. I've been told that the PAS switches off in the later cars above 30 so shouldn't have felt any difference... but I would still say the '91 felt better in it's steering.

I didn't really test the TCS on the '91 I had but Kevin thinks the TCS was vastly improved on the later cars. If I were recommending a Boxster S to someone (which I would if they cut hair:laugh:) then I'd definitely say to look for a model with PSM.

I believe steering assistance switches off above 20-25mph but the electronic damping stays there all the time. The then unique front suspension design of the NSX minimises bump steer anyway but the electronic damping helps even futher. This is why the NSX is sooo easy to drive fast down bumpy roads that would have the steering wheel of almost any other car jumping all over the place. The flip side is a lack of "feel" on the more normal, less bumpy roads that has road testers complaining of lack of feedback. Something as simple as a little more or less pressure in the tyres can make a big differance in steering feel so it's not necessarily down to the weather the sterring is assisted or not. Having said that, personally I prefer the EPS system as it is faster AND lighter in higher speed corners ie on track etc

RE traction and TCS, obviously the main differance is that the NSX has an LSD. This isn't an option on any Boxster and only GT3's fit them as standard on the 911 range. TCS, PSM etc are all well and good but they're no substitute for a proper mechanical LSD. I guess this is the main reason the for the excellent traction the NSX has but good weight distribution and suspension damping must also help.

Cheers

Mark

[NoelWatson]

Thanks Mark that makes me feel sooo much better.:cool:

Just to add my 2p worth. I recently met someone who bought a new RS4 after he'd spun his M3 in the rain (with his kids in the car and at modest speed). Any way after I took him out in the X he said it definately felt faster than both the M3 and the RS4. This really surprised me as I thought the RS4 would have been quicker. But he insisted the X pulled stronger.

At Bruntingthorpe, the NSX (02+) gets to around 160, the M3 around 163 and the RS4 to 170

[NoelWatson]

Hi Mark,

TBH I haven't really noticed a difference in steering... but then I wasn't looking out for anything - I'll have to have a think next time I have a drive. When I fishtailed the boxster up the road I did think the steering reacted very well and I didn't feel in danger of losing it. I've never and don't think will ever be able to do that in the NSX unless it's wet and the tyres are bold... and then I wouldn't want to try!

I have driven a 91 back to back with mine and thought the 91 felt better in terms of steering around tight corners. It was heavy in car parks but I could live with that. I've been told that the PAS switches off in the later cars above 30 so shouldn't have felt any difference... but I would still say the '91 felt better in it's steering.

I didn't really test the TCS on the '91 I had but Kevin thinks the TCS was vastly improved on the later cars. If I were recommending a Boxster S to someone (which I would if they cut hair:laugh:) then I'd definitely say to look for a model with PSM.

The RS4 is the early, twin turbo model. When my NSX was stock I had a few runs against my brother in one:
Understandably the RS4 was quicker off the lights (apparently quicker to 30 than a Maclaren F1?!) but after that it was neck and neck all the way up to XXX. Id say the NSX would have taken over at higher speeds due to aerodynamics and the increased wind resistance associated with higher speeds... but it's a long time since I did physics and I wouldn't want to test it against my crazy brother!

I would like to repeat the test now I think I'm pushing 10% more power... hopefully enough to plug the initial gap and some.

Cheers,

Luke*

"I didn't really test the TCS on the '91 I had but Kevin thinks the TCS was vastly improved on the later cars."

There is a large difference - something that was tested at Goodwood in Feb in the snow.

[Ferris Bueller]

At Bruntingthorpe, the NSX (02+) gets to around 160, the M3 around 163 and the RS4 to 170

Interesting. Is that an E46 M3, Noel, or the E92? Are both the Germans on their limiters? Both have similar aero and the same power so in theory they should max out at near enough the same speed, assuming they're geared to do so, when given a free rein.

[TheSebringOne]

I'm really enjoying these threads! Mark C, again you write some really good reads, especially helpful if you've owned both the 993 and now a NSX. Mark without sounding daft, when you say electronic damping, this is the Boxster isn't it. :)

[Silver Surfer]

The RS4 is the early, twin turbo model. When my NSX was stock I had a few runs against my brother in one:
Understandably the RS4 was quicker off the lights (apparently quicker to 30 than a Maclaren F1?!) but after that it was neck and neck all the way up to XXX. Id say the NSX would have taken over at higher speeds due to aerodynamics and the increased wind resistance associated with higher speeds... but it's a long time since I did physics and I wouldn't want to test it against my crazy brother!

I would like to repeat the test now I think I'm pushing 10% more power... hopefully enough to plug the initial gap and some.

Cheers,

Luke*

Hi Luke, Like you, I thought the 2.7 biturbo RS4 Avant was no faster than the NSX......I had just had it looked at and the RS4 was on 'limp' mode due to a sensor problem and MAF failure (which are common for these cars) thereby reducing to 'safe mode' power of around 240bhp. I have now had this rectified and believe me...it does now feel like the standard 380bhp and I can 'hand on my heart' say it is definitely faster than the NSX as it continues to pull strongly up to XXXmph. I have now had this remapped to 420bhp with a torque hike to 550Nm. Believe me...this is now in scary mode and gives the passenger freefall accelerating feel like on a roller coaster!! :laugh:

We can compare when I am next down your way. ;)

SS

[NoelWatson]

Interesting. Is that an E46 M3, Noel, or the E92? Are both the Germans on their limiters? Both have similar aero and the same power so in theory they should max out at near enough the same speed, assuming they're geared to do so, when given a free rein.

E46 with SMG on the (rev) limiter in 5th. I was in the IS-F which crossed the line at 172mph (4 up) and saw the Audi (slightly ahead) cross at 170. Not sure whether the limiters were disabled.

[Lankstarr]

Hi Luke, Like you, I thought the 2.7 biturbo RS4 Avant was no faster than the NSX......I had just had it looked at and the RS4 was on 'limp' mode due to a sensor problem and MAF failure (which are common for these cars) thereby reducing to 'safe mode' power of around 240bhp. I have now had this rectified and believe me...it does now feel like the standard 380bhp and I can 'hand on my heart' say it is definitely faster than the NSX as it continues to pull strongly up to XXXmph. I have now had this remapped to 420bhp with a torque hike to 550Nm. Believe me...this is now in scary mode and gives the passenger freefall accelerating feel like on a roller coaster!!

We can compare when I am next down your way.

SS

You're RS4 was running in limp mode and you didn't notice:laugh: and now it has nearly 200 bhp more:eek:

I drove one that had £12k spent on it and was pushing 500bhp. My NSX felt slow in comparison... make that very slow! My bro reckoned it was sub 4 secs and maybe even getting to mid 3's. Normally I bat him off and say he's full of sh*t but in this case it really did feel taht fast - it was ferocious! You're 420bhp RS4 would eat an NSX for breakfast (until one of the turbos failed:laugh:)

You should keep an eye out for a Milltex exhaust for it - they sound amazing and would give you an extra 20bhp:)

Hopefully mine is going to be sold today... I'm tempted by a red one if it's fully specc'd - s0d the fuel economy!

Given the choice though, what would people prefer:

2000-2001 RS4 ~ 70k miles, fairly depreciation proof, 20 mpg, 380bhp
2005- 05/55 S4 ~ 45k miles, newer shape, 4.2 V8, 330bhp (I think!), 20mpg, depreciates like a brick!

Both are about 20k. The depreciation is killer on an S4, from memory a 2000-2001 S4 with 70k would only be about 10k!

Luke

[NSXGB]

I have a mate who has 2 x RS4; a 500bhp Bi Turbo and the V8. I can say from experience on the track that there was nothing between the V8 (mildly chipped) and the NSX (mildly modded) up to about 130 ish (above that I don't know)...possibly a weight issue? Cornering wise the main thing I noticed was the lousy tall gearing of second in my '93 manual letting the side down.

Not compared it to the Bi Turbo but going out in that is something else (500bhp+)...feels like it's going to take off. :eek:.


He drove the NSX and said it handled better...

[Ferris Bueller]

E46 with SMG on the (rev) limiter in 5th. I was in the IS-F which crossed the line at 172mph (4 up) and saw the Audi (slightly ahead) cross at 170. Not sure whether the limiters were disabled.

Having run into the limiter on several M cars they do tend to be soft - the M5 ran to an indicated 169mph.

The E92 would be almost identical to RS4 or IS-F in terms of unlimited terminal velocity and there's very in it in a drag race.

NSX has no chance in that game. Maybe up to 120-130mph - after that the power differential is just too great.

[markc]

Mark without sounding daft, when you say electronic damping, this is the Boxster isn't it. :)

No. I meant the NSX, it has electronic steering damping built into the EPS.

Cheers

Mark

[NoelWatson]

Having run into the limiter on several M cars they do tend to be soft - the M5 ran to an indicated 169mph.

The E92 would be almost identical to RS4 or IS-F in terms of unlimited terminal velocity and there's very in it in a drag race.

NSX has no chance in that game. Maybe up to 120-130mph - after that the power differential is just too great.

I may be wrong but I recall that the limiter only works in top gear. This was certainly the case with the E34 M5 - it did 170 round the bowl in the Autocar test in 5th, but attempt the same in 6th and it was limited.

I think even up to 160, the NSX would be neck and neck with the E46 M3, once into 6th the acceleration is glacial. I'm hoping my news mods will overcome that next time round.

[NSXGB]

I think even up to 160, the NSX would be neck and neck with the E46 M3.

....can concurr with that statement too (SMG)...(well not quite up to 160)

[BabyG]

Did a lap of Germany in August, the NSX (3.0) and the E46 M3 (manual) were indistinguishable performance wise (from 80 to 160+) with repeated runs over the week. 993 911 Carrera S and a nicely tuned Tommi Mak were pretty similar as well...

Used to work on the design of EPS systems, the electrical damping on a disconnected system would be pretty horrendous as you're turning the electric motor through a pretty significant gear ratio. This would ruin the feel of the steering as you turn it, although at a constant lock would be less noticeable. It would however still dampen out the high frequency 'feel' you're looking for. In some circumstances electronic damping to avoid kickback is desirable, most of the time the electronics explicitly try to mask the effect of a large rotating mass being attached to the steering system.

EPS is now common in small cars (fuel economy and packaging being the key drivers) - it's got a way to come yet but eg both generations of the mini and the new fiesta have it, so it's got potential. Read what you like into me specifically looking for a car with manual steering even though I'm in London...

[Silver Surfer]

Given the choice though, what would people prefer:

2000-2001 RS4 ~ 70k miles, fairly depreciation proof, 20 mpg, 380bhp
2005- 05/55 S4 ~ 45k miles, newer shape, 4.2 V8, 330bhp (I think!), 20mpg, depreciates like a brick!

Both are about 20k. The depreciation is killer on an S4, from memory a 2000-2001 S4 with 70k would only be about 10k!

Luke

I'll definitely take the '2000-2001 RS4 ~ 70k miles' ...It has a classic style and is more tunable as well as loosing less in depreciation. I would go for CF surrounds and have a RNS-E Satnav with bluetooth and TV and that will make the interior bang up to date... But I am bias ;)!

SS

[NSXGB]

I'll definitely take the '2000-2001 RS4 ~ 70k miles' ...It has a classic style and is more tunable as well as loosing less in depreciation. I would go for CF surrounds and have a RNS-E Satnav with bluetooth and TV and that will make the interior bang up to date... But I am bias ;)!

SS


....and presumably outside of the new extortionate tax bands....

[Silver Surfer]

....and presumably outside of the new extortionate tax bands....

:yes::thumbsup:

SS