Classic & Sports Car [Archive]

markc

09-02-2009, 10:39 AM

Yep...

The headline for the article is "Who needs a Ferrari?", they look at 6 affordable rivals to a Maranello money pit :) There follows short half page sections on each rival. The cars featured are Alpine A610, Lotus Esprit V8, 911 Turbo (930), Noble M12, one other? and the NSX.

They suggest the NSX's F-car rival is the 328 but that is probably more to fit in with the where the other cars in the group fit in as surely everyone knows the NSX is much nearer to the 348 or even 355. Maybe they baseing it on todays purchase price? J999 xxx, in iconic if predicatable ;) red/black, represents the NSX cause very nicely.

Not a very in depth look and as usual not reseached adaquately, stainless steel exhaust on all NSX's, err.. I don't think so.

Another magazine article for our NSX collections all the same.

Cheers

Mark

simonprelude

09-02-2009, 03:34 PM

Just bought this, will scan later if all are in agreement.

Nice to see Ultraviolet's (Sam) car and even her driving it in the article, now that's a rareity ;)

TheSebringOne

09-02-2009, 10:40 PM

I think they used the same comparison NSX V 328 about 2-3 years ago in the same magazine. I will have to dig it out!

10-02-2009, 01:12 AM

I think they used the same comparison NSX V 328 about 2-3 years ago in the same magazine. I will have to dig it out!

If I remember correctly, it was a silver auto! Might as well compared a Legend 2.7! They said some nice things about handling, but IMHO it was biased towards the Ferrari.

gsuds

10-02-2009, 11:01 PM

Yes, remember something about the usual chestnut "Ferrari not as good a car but stirs the soul more" yada yada

Current article a nice wee snippet anyway. Would love to try an A610, but can't even recall ever seeing one.

Graham

simonprelude

11-02-2009, 02:20 PM

Here it is in as high resolution as the site uploader will allow.

NSX 2000

11-02-2009, 04:13 PM

What was the sixth car in the article?

simonprelude

11-02-2009, 04:39 PM

What was the sixth car in the article?

Lamborghini Uracco.

11-02-2009, 07:36 PM

What sort of figures did they quote for the NSX?

328 Rival what a load of crap!

Sudesh

11-02-2009, 09:50 PM

Must get this! I'm a big fan of the A610 Turbo too, still have the original sale brochure! lol Almost bough one last year that needed a bit of TLC.

gtm

11-02-2009, 10:29 PM

To put the 328 as benchmark in context, it was not an issue of original competitor (agreed, would be 348/355) but of current market value. I've not read the article yet, but the magazine wanted to borrow one of my cars, a Maserati Merak SS, but on the day they flooded the carbs and couldn't start it (I was overseas). They also had a couple of 911s lined up, one of which (an early turbo) was stacked by its owner on the way to the shoot (ouch), and the Uracco turned up on the back of a trailer...

markc

11-02-2009, 10:30 PM

What sort of figures did they quote for the NSX?

0-60 5.8secs, 158mph. A heathly 3.0Ltr should do a bit better than that :)

Must get this! I'm a big fan of the A610 Turbo too, still have the original sale brochure! lol Almost bough one last year that needed a bit of TLC.

I've always been quite partial to the A610 Turbo. I like the exterior looks but the interior is a disaster. A nice looking, low mileage red one was up at £5,500 on Pistonheads last year.

I won't forgive Clarkson for trashing a perfectly nice blue one on his last but one DVD :(

Cheers

Mark

NoelWatson

12-02-2009, 08:05 AM

0-60 5.8secs, 158mph. A heathly 3.0Ltr should do a bit better than that :)

Top speed is an interesting one. The two ~97 cars tested by Autocar both did around 160mph (I was reading Acura-Honda NSX Performance Portfolio last night). It was only the 2002 press car that got over 160 (171 IIRC). Will check again tonight. I think the Millbrook banking saps 1 mph for every 10mph over 100mph.

markc

12-02-2009, 10:06 AM

I think the Millbrook banking saps 1 mph for every 10mph over 100mph.

As proved by Jason Plato on "Fifth Gear" this week, the 190mph Maserati Gran Turismo S could only manage 152mph, "foot to the boards", around the Millbrook bowl. Apparently there was a strong headwind.

Cheers

Mark

NoelWatson

12-02-2009, 11:51 AM

As proved by Jason Plato on "Fifth Gear" this week, the 190mph Maserati Gran Turismo S could only manage 152mph, "foot to the boards", around the Millbrook bowl. Apparently there was a strong headwind.

Cheers

Mark

Saw that last night and thought it strange. The question remains, how did an allegedly standard 2002 NSX do 171 round the same bowl?

TheQuietOne

12-02-2009, 12:51 PM

Must get this! I'm a big fan of the A610 Turbo too, still have the original sale brochure! lol Almost bough one last year that needed a bit of TLC.

We need Chris (nationofzeros) in this thread! He has owned more than one of these, and has a real passion and deep knowledge for them. I talked to him at Japfest about it - I'm sure he is/was part of the UK owners club too.

Great looking cars - my Mum always wanted one when I wanted younger!

12-02-2009, 12:51 PM

The problem is that perhaps that particular 3.2 had a stronger engine than others, perhaps it had no CD changer and the spare and toolkit where out. Could be a skinny driver?

Is a shame there is not a place where we can try the cars over a 5 miles strech of road.

That 158mph and 5.8 seconds... I'll leave it at that.

Kevin

12-02-2009, 02:13 PM

I could do 5.3 secs 0-60 easily as measured with a Racelogic meter. That was before low ratio gearbox and other lightweight changes.

5 mile stretch of road? Germany. :)

PeteM

12-02-2009, 02:21 PM

As proved by Jason Plato on "Fifth Gear" this week, the 190mph Maserati Gran Turismo S could only manage 152mph, "foot to the boards", around the Millbrook bowl. Apparently there was a strong headwind.

Cheers

Mark

The strong headwind remark put a smile on my face. Because the Millbrook bowl is a full circle around a certain amount of the bowl the headwind would actually be a tailwind assisting the car.

It doesn't say alot for the cars aerodynamics !

(yes I know there are many other factors, like the type of tyres used, pressures, rolling resistance etc etc but it still made me smile)

On that note is there anybody that remember's the XJ 220 vmax run where they even took the cats off to try and reach the manufactures quoted top speed. I beleive it might even have been Tiff driving it on top gear a few years back ?

Pete.

markc

12-02-2009, 05:27 PM

The problem is that perhaps that particular 3.2 had a stronger engine than others, perhaps it had no CD changer and the spare and toolkit where out. Could be a skinny driver?

More power would help but weight won't make any differance to top speed.

The strong headwind remark put a smile on my face. Because the Millbrook bowl is a full circle around a certain amount of the bowl the headwind would actually be a tailwind assisting the car.

It doesn't say alot for the cars aerodynamics !

(yes I know there are many other factors, like the type of tyres used, pressures, rolling resistance etc etc but it still made me smile)

On that note is there anybody that remember's the XJ 220 vmax run where they even took the cats off to try and reach the manufactures quoted top speed. I beleive it might even have been Tiff driving it on top gear a few years back ?

Pete.

Good point on the headwind around a bowl, I hadn't thought of that... doh! :)

Martin Brundle drove the XJ220 at Nardo in Italy on the occassion you're recalling.

Tiff drove the Macca F1 at Millbrook and set the record around it, didn't crack 200mph though. The car is capable of 230mph+ but the 1 mile circumference and banking angle is insufficient to go that fast.

Andy Wallace drove the Macca at Ehra Lessien in Germany where it cracked 240mph but they had to disable the rev limiter to achieve that speed.

Mark

12-02-2009, 05:32 PM

Mark,

Won't it make a difference because it is a bowl?

If it was a straight infinite line, then I could see it no affecting it.

Power and weight make a difference in the quarter mile so...

PeteM

12-02-2009, 07:30 PM

Martin Brundle drove the XJ220 at Nardo in Italy on the occassion you're recalling.

Tiff drove the Macca F1 at Millbrook and set the record around it, didn't crack 200mph though. The car is capable of 230mph+ but the 1 mile circumference and banking angle is insufficient to go that fast.

Mark

Good memory !! That was it, Martin brundle in the XJ220 and Tiff in the Mac F1, right person wrong car !

No you mention it I do remember both occasions, funny it's just my memory fading with time, glad you are keeping your's together though Mark ! :)

Cheers Pete.

markc

12-02-2009, 08:49 PM

Mark,

Won't it make a difference because it is a bowl?

If it was a straight infinite line, then I could see it no affecting it.

Power and weight make a difference in the quarter mile so...

Weight certainly makes a differance to acceleration (and braking) so would allow you to hit top speed earlier but, depending how much less weight, only marginally so. I suppose extra weight could try push the car up and out of the bowl and squash the tyres and suspension to rob it of some speed but you'd have to be looking at substancially more weight to have a big effect.

Low weight benefits any change of direction be it acceleration, braking or cornering (actually direction change more than steady state cornering). Acceleration from low speed, or indeed from rest like a quarter mile drag, is heavily influenced by absolute low weight, to get it rolling, and then power to weight ratio, to accelerate it quickly.

Cheers

Mark

markc

12-02-2009, 08:51 PM

Good memory !! That was it, Martin brundle in the XJ220 and Tiff in the Mac F1, right person wrong car !

No you mention it I do remember both occasions, funny it's just my memory fading with time, glad you are keeping your's together though Mark ! :)

Cheers Pete.

Almost all my own memory as well :) Had to resort to google to get the name of the circuit in Germany.

Shame I can't remember stuff that would make me any money half as well :(

Mark

nationofzeros

12-02-2009, 09:33 PM

I have to get stuck in given the mention of the Alpine-Renault A610 - I went through an extended period of Gallic love-hate passions involving a red GTA Turbo, followed by a burgandy / black widebody Le Mans (absolutely brilliant ground-coverer, massively old-school agility & steering, insane standard 10.5'' rear steam roller - style wheels trying desperately to keep the 64% of the mass on the rear axle under some semblance of control), and finally a blue Renault Sport Spider in which I managed to do 8000 miles without heater, hood or indeed any sort of weather protection apart from crouching behind the 'windshield' and going very fast

The Le Mans and the Spider are bona fide future classics, although having a PhD in electrical engineering is necessary if you want to actually complete any journey in either of them

Senninha

12-02-2009, 11:43 PM

5 mile stretch of road? Germany. :)Been there, done that side by side with young Kowalski ... 170 ... plenty of space :)

TheSebringOne

12-02-2009, 11:45 PM

Maybe a very very strong tail wind helped it to 171 or the engine was definately tweaked, take your pick! ;)

When Tiff broke the UK record at nearly 200mph (way off 240.1 max), the car started to weave dangerously that Tiff backed off. Later they found the rear tyres were reduced to near canvas too on one edge! Cornering forces reduces top speed dramatically.

The Mac F1 that did 240.1 mph (then a record), could only do it on the VW track since it was a long & straight, rather than banked round track. I believe its rev limiter was raised too. Likewise the Bug broke its record there too I think?

If you have a long enough stright flat run, I think the NSX is capable of near or just over 170? Didn't Leigh do over 180 on the Autobaun?

Just my 2p

13-02-2009, 02:20 AM

If you have a long enough stright flat run, I think the NSX is capable of near or just over 170?

A well ventilated NSX can do way more than that or so say a few people.

Is a matter of testicles over brains once you are talking silly speeds.

It could end up that way quite leterally!

Cheers,

AR

markc

13-02-2009, 12:30 PM

These test tracks are interesting from the air :)

Millbrook... http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

Nardo... http://googlesightseeing.com/maps?p=1480&c=&t=k&hl=en&ll=40.326655,17.827721&z=14

Ehra-Lessien... http://googlesightseeing.com/maps?p=1327&c=&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=13&ll=52.636084,10.773811&spn=0.076778,0.22934&t=k

Senninha

13-02-2009, 12:58 PM

More power would help but weight won't make any differance to top speed.

Mark

Ok, this one's got me confused Mark. I would of thought that with the aerodynamics of an NSX, good power and less weight, you would see benefits in acceleration and top speed.

Why do you say weight wont make a difference please?

regards, Paul

NoelWatson

13-02-2009, 01:15 PM

markc

13-02-2009, 01:48 PM

Ok, this one's got me confused Mark. I would of thought that with the aerodynamics of an NSX, good power and less weight, you would see benefits in acceleration and top speed.

Why do you say weight wont make a difference please?

regards, Paul

Weight will make a small difference to top speed, but drag is the overriding factor. For example, I reckon lopping 50kg from my car will mean that I will need 0.5 less bhp to do 175 mph (assuming my spreadsheet is correct)

As Noel says drag (Cd), actually drag and frontal area (CdA or sometime CxA), have a FAR greater influence on top speed than weight does. Correct gearing ie hitting top speed at peak power, is also more influential than weight. Assuming we're not talking about enormous amounts of weight of course! A 5 ton NSX probably won't ever hit 170mph :)

Removing a even a couple of hundred kg's from an NSX will have a negligable effect on it's ultimate top speed (given enough road) but it will get to that speed a lot quicker (improved acceleration) due to it's better power to weight ratio.

Interestingly, well for me anyway, my old Citroen (CX) got it's name from the technical term for drag :)

Mark

13-02-2009, 02:14 PM

Is a bit like the balance between downforce and drag and how much friction some part might add. I've spent many hours measuring stuff and in the end decided that I am never going to be going that fast anyways!!!
I will tell you that undertrays,bonnet ducts and wing help the car feel more planted at motorway speeds. :)