Brake advice

[Lankstarr]

Some help needed on what to do for brakes please guys...

My front discs are warped (again) I went for RB one piece brakes about 18 months ago and just recently they've started to judder. Plenty of disc left but sligght warpage and as they're slotted they can't be skimmed.

I have Project Mu street/track pads on the front... maybe they're too harsh for every day use? I've only done one track day in 18 months (shame on me) but this was about a year ago so I don't think it's related. I don;t use the hand brake but am guilty of not letting things cool down properly all of the time. I'm guessing this is the cause as well as maybe not bedding the discs in properly at teh start (spirited drive followed by long cooling).

So new discs are on the cards, I'm considering Dixcel Brakes but don't think anyone has used them yet? If I'm not going to track the car a lot then do I need to pay double for heat treated slotted discs ... maybe heat treated is the way fforward for me as they'll be more resilient to warping? Dixcel offer a anti-warp guarantee if I buy the pads as well... but they're an extra £130:eek: the project Mus have plenty of life left (they've outlasted the duiscs!) and I have a spare set of OEM front pads.

Money's tight at the moment but I don't want to go for the cheap option only to replace again in 6/12/18 months. I've got brake cooling duucts, new s/s lines and dot 4 fluid so shoudl theoretically have a good set up... I just want it to last and will ensure from now on that I do cool for a few miles before parking up.

Opinions and advice appreciated.

Thanks,

Luke

[WhyOne?]

Hi Luke,

In the normal way of things, brake disks don’t just warp of their own volition!

With the perfectly normal usage of your car that you describe it seems very odd to me that the new disks have also warped and I wonder if there is something else amiss?

Have both disks warped?

Is it possible that one of your callipers is binding? (It would be highly unlikely that both would start to bind simultaneously)

I would be very tempted to explore any extraneous causal reasons for this before spending money on replacing them again.

Sorry I cant be more help.

[BabyG]

I've just been through the same dilemma, I warped mine at some point in Germany. Given the price difference I've gone for the Dixcel Plain Disc, and a bit of caution to warm and cool the brakes properly. If I have further problems I'll look again at more expensive rotors (and match with pads), but at the price I thought it was worth a go with the normal items.

I'm also running project mu, same pads as you. Again, they have plenty left and the discs have warped. (My discs were getting on a bit though).

Note both the new Dixcel site and VTECdirect have 10% off at the mo, can offer a :thumbsup: to the service from Andy at VTECdirect.

[amo]

helooo there
yes you can get thediscs skimed even if they are groved or slotted as ling as theres enough thickness on them
im in the middle of tryin to get a good deal on a set of 2 pc front set up groved hope to get a good club price
thx amo

[NSXGB]

Go two piece RB & remove splash guards.

[Lankstarr]

This is actually the second set that have warped... when I got the car the OEM discs were warped - I had them skimmed then they warped again! I've asked Honda to investigate sticky calipers etc and they came bacvk to say all was well. AFAIK it is both sides that are warped.

Reluctant to go RB again as they've just warped on me! I went for one piece as 2 piece were too expensive at the time.

I understood why you couldn't skim slotted discs (because the grooves would fill up with what you're skimming) but it was Honda saying this and maybe they're not used to slotted discs?

I'll get an independant opinion but feel I need someone that knows what they're talking about rather than any old garage! Honda was my best bet around here for not leaving the car with muppets so I'll have to rethink ...

Thanks for your opinions... if anyone else has a few pence to chuck in it's all appreciated.

Luke

[NSXGB]

They can be skimmed if they are grooved but obviously depending upon how much needs to be taken off, the groove depth will decrease. a decent engineering shop will be able to do this.

[Lankstarr]

Just spoke to a couple of people about the skimming option... the first guy said no wirries skimming a grooved disc, but we don't have a skimmer and Honda said they wouldn;t be comfortable skimming a grooved disc in case it damaged their skimmer! (also said it wouldn't be as effective)

I'll phone around to see who'll take on this scary task. If I want to get the whole set up re-checked then I guess I need a garage rather than an engineering firm. A couple I've tried don;t have a skimmer so I'll keep hunting!

Thanks,

Luke

[NSXGB]

Just spoke to a couple of people about the skimming option... the first guy said no wirries skimming a grooved disc, but we don't have a skimmer and Honda said they wouldn;t be comfortable skimming a grooved disc in case it damaged their skimmer! (also said it wouldn't be as effective)

Honda have not got a Scooby Doo then! Damage their skimmer FFS...:no:




I'll phone around to see who'll take on this scary task. If I want to get the whole set up re-checked then I guess I need a garage rather than an engineering firm. A couple I've tried don;t have a skimmer so I'll keep hunting!

Thanks,

Luke

The engineering firm would be the people to talk to. Take the discs off, give them to an engineer. He will test the run out of the disc and skim the correct amount off.
I would suggest a call to a decent garage like Plans who would have work done like this and ask them who they use...

[NSX 2000]

Honda have not got a Scooby Doo then!


Simon, of course they do not have a Scooby Doo, you need to go to Subaru for Scooby Doos :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[eclipse1501]

I recently got good deal on a set of EBC drilled/slotted discs (front and rear) from a dealer in Leeds. Got some red stuff front and rear pads from him at same time and spent £400. Hardly worth skimming and labour for that type of money.

[NSXGB]

Simon, of course they do not have a Scooby Doo, you need to go to Subaru for Scooby Doos :laugh: :laugh:


There's always one.... :no:


:)

[TheSebringOne]

I got standard AP Dixcels from VtecDirect (Barry) with OEM pads and so far, no problems. Even though I don't do mammoth mileage, I do stamp on the brakes on one of my fave blast. Thats after initial bedding in & some patience! I wonder if your pads are too hard? Either this or pre heat treated AP Dixcels may help & should last longer? Just my 2p.

[markc]

Some help needed on what to do for brakes please guys...

My front discs are warped (again) I went for RB one piece brakes about 18 months ago and just recently they've started to judder. Plenty of disc left but sligght warpage and as they're slotted they can't be skimmed.

I have Project Mu street/track pads on the front... maybe they're too harsh for every day use? I've only done one track day in 18 months (shame on me) but this was about a year ago so I don't think it's related. I don;t use the hand brake but am guilty of not letting things cool down properly all of the time. I'm guessing this is the cause as well as maybe not bedding the discs in properly at teh start (spirited drive followed by long cooling).

So new discs are on the cards, I'm considering Dixcel Brakes but don't think anyone has used them yet? If I'm not going to track the car a lot then do I need to pay double for heat treated slotted discs ... maybe heat treated is the way fforward for me as they'll be more resilient to warping? Dixcel offer a anti-warp guarantee if I buy the pads as well... but they're an extra £130:eek: the project Mus have plenty of life left (they've outlasted the duiscs!) and I have a spare set of OEM front pads.

Money's tight at the moment but I don't want to go for the cheap option only to replace again in 6/12/18 months. I've got brake cooling duucts, new s/s lines and dot 4 fluid so shoudl theoretically have a good set up... I just want it to last and will ensure from now on that I do cool for a few miles before parking up.

Opinions and advice appreciated.

Thanks,

Luke

Hi Luke,

How do you notice the disc "warp" when driving the car? Is it all the time or just when you get them hot after a spirited drive? It's usually the latter.

It is highly unlikely that your disks have "warped" in the litteral sense of the word ie To become bent or twisted out of shape, more likely they have uneven brake pad material transfer which causes localised heat retention and results in the vibration we all call warping.

As you say it sounds like you may have contributed to your problem by not breaking the disc/pad combo in correctly and not letting them cool after hard use. Both of these are important to ensure an even material transfer and smooth brake performance thereafter.

So what to do to cure your current problem and/or avoid it in the future?

Skimming will remove the layer of pad material that is causing the current problem BUT the disc material (cast iron) may be permanently damaged underneath, due to the previous excessive heat build up, and therefore not be a permanent fix.

IMHO heat treating is BS, all discs are heat treated in the manufacturing process so any half decent ones shouldn't need additional treatment.

It may be that the combo of RB discs, Project Mu pads and your driving/brake cooling style are incompatible? A clue maybe in Dixels anti-warp guarantee provided their discs AND pads are used together. Whatever you choose ensure you follow a proper disc/pad break in next time.

I also use the Project Mu Street/Track pads but with the original Honda discs. I've not experienced a problem on normal road driving, well unless you include the Isle Of Man mountain as a normal road :)

I had severe brake judder on track at Silverstone 2 years ago but it went away for normal road use. A new set of the same Mu pads (and fluid etc) for Bedford using the same discs, you were there as well, and juddering was much less... go figure?

I'm hoping to go with 2 piece discs next, hopefully the RB oversized ones, and probably stick with the Project Mu pads as they've worked well for me.

Cheers

Mark

[Lankstarr]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply Mark.

It is only when the car is warm that I notice it... it started off only being breaking from high speeds but has gotten worse fairly quickly.

Honda gave the diagnosis of warped; whether it's pad residue or actual warping I know not. Honda also told me that with a new set of discs it's usual to get small warpage - you then skim the discs on the car so that they're flush with the hub. This worked for a small amount of time when I had teh OEM discs skimmed but they warped soon after (with OEM pads).

If I take the discs off and pay for skimming and refitting I may as well just get some new discs! The Dixcel ones are a fair price but the pads are £££ when I have a good set of pads on the car and a spare set of OEM pads. Getting the right combo is important though as I don;t want to be changing every year.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm


Hi Luke,

How do you notice the disc "warp" when driving the car? Is it all the time or just when you get them hot after a spirited drive? It's usually the latter.

It is highly unlikely that your disks have "warped" in the litteral sense of the word ie To become bent or twisted out of shape, more likely they have uneven brake pad material transfer which causes localised heat retention and results in the vibration we all call warping.

As you say it sounds like you may have contributed to your problem by not breaking the disc/pad combo in correctly and not letting them cool after hard use. Both of these are important to ensure an even material transfer and smooth brake performance thereafter.

So what to do to cure your current problem and/or avoid it in the future?

Skimming will remove the layer of pad material that is causing the current problem BUT the disc material (cast iron) may be permanently damaged underneath, due to the previous excessive heat build up, and therefore not be a permanent fix.

IMHO heat treating is BS, all discs are heat treated in the manufacturing process so any half decent ones shouldn't need additional treatment.

It may be that the combo of RB discs, Project Mu pads and your driving/brake cooling style are incompatible? A clue maybe in Dixels anti-warp guarantee provided their discs AND pads are used together. Whatever you choose ensure you follow a proper disc/pad break in next time.

I also use the Project Mu Street/Track pads but with the original Honda discs. I've not experienced a problem on normal road driving, well unless you include the Isle Of Man mountain as a normal road :)

I had severe brake judder on track at Silverstone 2 years ago but it went away for normal road use. A new set of the same Mu pads (and fluid etc) for Bedford using the same discs, you were there as well, and juddering was much less... go figure?

I'm hoping to go with 2 piece discs next, hopefully the RB oversized ones, and probably stick with the Project Mu pads as they've worked well for me.

Cheers

Mark

[WhyOne?]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply Mark.

........... gotten .....................




Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........................give the septics a perfectly good language & look what they do with it!

[markc]

Honda also told me that with a new set of discs it's usual to get small warpage - you then skim the discs on the car so that they're flush with the hub.

That's a load of **** as well :)

They're implying that the new discs don't mount flush to the hub. This can happen if the hub is rusty or something gets trapped under there (excess paint etc) when they're being mounted. Skimming the disc isn't the answer though, re-mounting the disc properly should do it.

The NSX calipers "float" on their mounting pins, this design takes out some of the wobble/judder out. It is quite common with this design for the calipers to seize on these pins so that they can't slide/float. They therefore transmit any "warping" more directly into the suspension/steering. You'd probably experience uneven pad wear (differant between the inner and outer pads in a single caliper) if this were the case. Could be worth checking that your calipers aren't seized on the pins?

Mark

[AR]

Luke I can't believe the BS Honda is throwing your way! I remember when I learned to skim discs and drums a about 20 years ago! most imperfections were cure with a fast cut followed by a slow cut, unless as Mark pointed, the metal had changed due to heat.

Are you sure you are no feeling the ABS pulsating?

Just making sure.

Cheers,

AR

[Lankstarr]

By ABD did you hit the wrong key and mean ABS!? I've gotten to know what ABS is but neverer gotten to hear about ABD;) Definitely not the ABS as it's a very different feel.

I'd like to rule out something like a seized pin on the caliper, I have a spare caliper from a 92 car so maybe I could salvage something if they're the same. Like y'all said before it's highly unlikely that both sides would seize, but TBH I don't even know whetehr it's both sides that are out.

Is there an easy way for someone like me to check the warpage on each disc and also whether the pins are seized?

Thanks,

Luke

[Lankstarr]

I recently got good deal on a set of EBC drilled/slotted discs (front and rear) from a dealer in Leeds. Got some red stuff front and rear pads from him at same time and spent £400. Hardly worth skimming and labour for that type of money.


Sounds like a great deal for front and back set up and drilled (and?) slotted discs. Is this the guy that advertises on ebay?

Dixcel brakes get excellent reviews from the S2000 guys... are EBC any good!?

Thanks,

Luke

[simonprelude]

are EBC any good!?

They're amazing if you drive a sub 100 bhp Saxo.

[NSX 2000]

Sounds like a great deal for front and back set up and drilled (and?) slotted discs. Is this the guy that advertises on ebay?

Dixcel brakes get excellent reviews from the S2000 guys... are EBC any good!?

Thanks,

Luke

Hi Luke

This topic was discussed not so long ago, I have EBC (discs and pads) on my little peugeot 205 and think they are great, IIRC the general census on EBC is for light cars, such as hot hatches they are very good but when you move up to heavy performance cars such as M cars or AMG then Brembo and AP seem to be the brakes of choice.

IMO I think a lot of the brake stuff is down to marketing, EBC do their marketing on BTCC events and lower while AP and Brembo marketing is at WRC, F1, Porche cup etc. level.

If you are not willing to go down the type r disk and pad route like myself and Paul then I would do the Dixcel brake deal. If you look in the vendor section they have just opened up new premises near Dartford, it would only take you just over an hour to get there on a saturday morning.

HTH

Paul.

[Senninha]

Luke,

Have you thought about the brake kit that Detlef supplies? His standard AP upgrade does need 17's all round but he may be able to offer a kit for 16/17 combo?

When I spoke to him last year after the Ring trip about his kit, IHO he was able to out perform the non ceramic GT3's on track ... so even your hard driving style should be satisfied with that level of performance

Just a thought

regards, Paul

[markc]

Is there an easy way for someone like me to check the warpage on each disc and also whether the pins are seized?

Thanks,

Luke

To check for actual warpage (good word :) ) you need a dial guage to check the run out as the disc is turned. Obviously you can only do this when the disc is cold so you probably won't measure much.

Seized pins are easy to check. Remove the wheel, unbolt the caliper, slip out the pads and remount the caliper. With the pads removed the caliper should slide easily along the mounting pins ie towards and away from the centreline of the car.

Are you still at/near Fleet? Pop over to my house (Lightwater - M3, J3) at the weekend if you like and we can take a looksee?

Cheers

Mark

[Lankstarr]

Thanks Mark - I'll definitely take you up on the offer!

This weekend's not good for me but I'll have plenty of free time in April so I'll arrange a time then (via pm) if it's OK with you?

Paul - I'm looking for stopping power that's affordable to me at the moment! Detelf's stuff would be great but unfortunately out of my price league and probably a lot more than I needd in terms of stopping power.

I've already adjusted my "driving style" to cool down and heat up less and I haven't experienced the judder since... I know it's still there if I wanted to push it but for now I'm just chilling until something is sorted.

Thanks,

Luke

[Lankstarr]

Thanks Paul - Dixcel is looking like the favourite and I'd be happy to drive there and maybe combine it with a meet and tunnel run (after the fitting :laugh:).

In the mean time I want to rule out any potential causes so will go and see Mark.

Thanks for everyone's help:)

Luke


Hi Luke

This topic was discussed not so long ago, I have EBC (discs and pads) on my little peugeot 205 and think they are great, IIRC the general census on EBC is for light cars, such as hot hatches they are very good but when you move up to heavy performance cars such as M cars or AMG then Brembo and AP seem to be the brakes of choice.

IMO I think a lot of the brake stuff is down to marketing, EBC do their marketing on BTCC events and lower while AP and Brembo marketing is at WRC, F1, Porche cup etc. level.

If you are not willing to go down the type r disk and pad route like myself and Paul then I would do the Dixcel brake deal. If you look in the vendor section they have just opened up new premises near Dartford, it would only take you just over an hour to get there on a saturday morning.

HTH

Paul.

[AR]

By ABD did you hit the wrong key and mean ABS!? I've gotten to know what ABS is but neverer gotten to hear about ABD;) Definitely not the ABS as it's a very different feel.



Sorry mate ABS I meant, I did not mean to add more weird things to the problem! :)

[AR]

Luke if you are looking for affordable brakes I got my jigsaw and plenty of blades.

Fred Flinstone style! :)

I will be interested to know how the Dixcel ones perfrom. I will be looking at some brakes in the future and is either some of those or a BBK it all depends on how the year comes.

[TheSebringOne]

Found these strange front disc, but not sure if they are any good at that price? Are the shape of the edges suppose to aid cooling?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rotordisc-Front-Brake-Disc-HONDA-NSX-Coupe-3-0-V6-90_W0QQitemZ290276637678QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Cars Parts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item290276637678&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318