Brawn F1, fast!

[craigdonnelly]

Hello ladies and gentleman and Mutley. I Hope everyone is well?

I was listening to the radio about the new F1 season and they described the Brawn F1 car as a "Rocket Ship" and the odds on Jensen Button winning the championship have been slashed. I bet you know what I'm going to say next?... only if Honda stayed in F1 we could have Honda winning the F1 constructors title!

I know the car industry is in free fall but the budgets for the F1 teams are being slashed to a reported £50-60M because £30M is said to be too low. I have no doubt Honda must spend nearly that amount on Advertising. I don't have much experience in advertising but I would cut back on media adverts and use F1 to steel market share.

[WhyOne?]

Whilst I hope the Brawn pace is genuine, & i would love to see JB in a competitive car, I still have my nagging doubts. They badly need sponsorship & I wonder if they have been running the car either very light (unlikely as they have done some long runs with good pace) or slightly outside the rules (which do not apply to testing, only GP weekends)?

Even if the Brawn pace is real, there is a storm looming for immediately after the race in Melbourne - if the Brawn, Williams of Toyota cars do well, the result will almost certainly be appealed (I believe Ferrari have already mad public their intention to do this) because it is felt the interpretation of the rear diffuser on all of these cars is outside of the rules.

F1 does get itself in some right old messes!!!

[craigdonnelly]

They never mentioned any issues about the car on the two different F1 radio shows. I think in F1 they should simplify the politics as well as the cars! For a start I think it's shocking that their is two teams less on the grid and wee Bernie won't help the teams with a bigger share of the F1 revenue. Does that wee dictator realise he might be left with only a couple of teams.

[WhyOne?]

They never mentioned any issues about the car on the two different F1 radio shows.

One dark cloud still hovering over F1, the unresolved rear diffuser issue.


The rear diffuser saga which has caused a lot of controversy might just be the Achilles heel in the 2009 F1 season. Since the unveiling of Toyota and Williams, the issue has taken on a life of its own. With the FIA going AWOL the two sides are still locking horns with no one backing down.
Toyota, Brawn and Williams are the three teams with the controversial rear diffusers. FIA head of F1 technical department Charlie Whiting’s Barcelona trip has failed to resolve the issue. And we now look set for a show down in Melbourne and beyond.
With the remaining teams using a “conventional” diffuser, some of the big boys in that pack are not happy. With Renault head Flavio Briatore the most vocal, his got support from Ferrari’s Luca di Montezemelo as well as Mclaren’s Martin Whitmarsh.
Whiting’s failure to resolve this issue in Barcelona means Melbourne will be the next battle ground with stewards refereeing. This issue should not have been left unresolved, with the FIA taking a very nonchalant approach to the whole issue. This is probably going to be FOTA’s biggest challenge to date.
The problem is each side seems to have a concrete case for their case, with Toyota and co. already getting the FIA seal of approval. Toyota and co. may have to kiss their strong title hopes goodbye, while Mclaren and co. may face the prospect of scraping for a win or two all season.
So the big question here is how do you strike a balance without severely disadvantaging one side? For this row to be resolved if it comes to a head, both sides will have to compromise. That will be easier said than done because it will mean Toyota, Brawn and Williams will most likely loose their edge.
The only thing that will bring this issue to a head will be Toyota, Brawn and Williams pace in Melbourne. If the three dominate the test sessions and qualifying expect major fireworks to erupt. And if something isn’t done soon Melbourne might end up being a major disappointment.

[NSXGB]

I still think the top teams (from last year) are holding something back...

[craigdonnelly]

I can't believe the season hasn't started and there is already irritating controversy. If teams are not careful every car on the F1 grid will end up with the same chassis and half of them now use the same engines. This could make F1 less of a team sport and more of an individual drivers sport which might not be such a bad thing if you had no allegiances to a manufacture.

[Senninha]

So to address the diffusor issue ... if the FIA rules are open to interpretation then the teams with clever engineers that can think creatively, will come up with something unique.

The fact that 3 teams, and all 3 did start very early last year to develop their 09 cars (say thank you to Honda software computing power Mr Brawn), have come up with similar solutions suggests there is flexibility in the guidance given. Add to this that the FIA couldn't (wouldn't) make a ruling during testing suggests the designs may stay.

IMO, the issue for the other teams is that a diffusor redesign is not the simple answer. These diffusors have been designed to work with the air that is forced under the car by the rerst of the cars design. To change this is a major redesign / rebuild of the 09 chassis. This alone would smash the 'agreed' new budgets.

If the FIA do make any ruling I would not expect it to have any effect until the teams hit the European tracks, so thats 4 races to either make a huge headway for the named 3, or 4 races listening to fat old Briatori moaning over his Marlboro's :rolleyes:

Now the other issue ... The FIA.
IMO they had a terrible year in 08 calling some very bad decisions. How will they influence this years results? All the aero changes, tyre changes, KERS are designed to allow for closer racing, less disterbance for the following car and therefore more overtaking ... particularly important if you need that extra win for the title rather than cruising in the pack for points.
Now then ... what is going to happen when the young chargers go for the over take they are being encouraged to go for, and as a result of that move, wings go flying (I expect to see lots of lost front wings this year) or some other outcome not to the red cars liking ... will the whole idea of an overtake be too high a risk and therefor negate all the changes?



This could make F1 less of a team sport and more of an individual drivers sport

This works well for Indy with numerous drivers shining at different circuits despite very similar machinery.

regards, Paul

[Senninha]

Just stumbled on this on an F1 forum



"Our Bernie who art not yet in heaven, sullied be they name, thy kingdom nearly done, thy bidding WILL be done on race tracks and in business, give us this day more of your power crazed delirium, and forgive us for questioning you as we dont forgive you for slowly destroying our sport. Lead us not into another concorde agreement but a break away by FOTA. For thine kingdom is crumbling your glory non existent and thank the real lord you wont be around for ever and ever! "


Made an amusing little read

[WhyOne?]

.......... Add to this that the FIA couldn't (wouldn't) make a ruling during testing suggests the designs may stay...................


It is this that I find especially shocking - the FIA make & administer the rules.

The fact they were asked to look at the diffusors during testing was sensible.

The fact they were unable/willing to make a clear decision just mires the 1st race in controversy & doubt. Whilst F1 thrives on this kind of thing, I really do not believe this is the time to be causing more doubt / confusion in the publics minds.

The last thing we/F1 need is for the result in Melbourne to be appealed & everyone leave not knowing who won.

[WhyOne?]

The storm continues to grow:

Brawn, Williams and Toyota insist their interpretation of the rulebook is correct and that their designs are legal - a stance backed FIA president Max Mosley.

Renault boss Flavio Briatore recently voiced his concerns, while Red Bull Racing advisor Helmut Marko was adamant his team would take action if they deemed it necessary.
"It's illegal," he said. "We'll make a protest on Thursday if the component isn't modified to conform to the regulations, because that diffuser guarantees a five-tenths (of a second advantage per lap).

"Seven teams are certain it's illegal."

[AR]

F1 has been a joke for ages, even more so now, with Honda departing altogether. It would be nice if some of the regulations will be thrown back and it became once again the pinnacle of automotive engineering.

[TheSebringOne]

I've notice Honda are reshowing that great advert again! Is this to boost sales or by co-incidence, Brawn F1 is doing rather well & the F1 season is about to start?

Pushing design rules is why F1 is the pinnacle of R & D and technology. All the teams are trying one thing or another, some will get caught & it will get banned. Grey areas are always open to interpretation.

Budgets we all know have to be cut because its getting out of hand, £30m maybe too small & £50-60m is more realistic, but please don't set it at a low level, where individual car design will be lost. If all car designs were the same, it would be boring & theres no innovation freedom!

I hope Brawn F1 recent test results & times are geniune and hopefully with improved reliability, the team will come of age & fullfil what Honda could'nt manage!

Come on F1 & Brawn F1, I can't wait! :thumbsup:

[WhyOne?]

I've notice Honda are reshowing that great advert again!

I agree, it is a great advert, but I find it odd that Honda are currently screening it.

There is a certain irony about running an ad. featuring cars like the NSX, recently canned S2000 & the now defunct (albeit reborn in non-Honda guise) F1 team, with no 'drivers' cars in Honda's range on the horizon.

Very peculiar.

[WhyOne?]

The storm breaks:

A protest has been lodged against the cars of three teams on the eve of the season-opening Australian Grand Prix.

Ferrari, BMW Sauber, Renault and Red Bull claim the cars of Brawn GP, Toyota and Williams have illegal parts that give them an unfair advantage.
The protest was lodged after stewards in Melbourne said on Thursday the cars conformed with Formula One's rules.

A spokesman for governing body the FIA said it hoped to have a verdict on the appeal by the end of Thursday.

All three cars are expected to be close to the front in the Grand Prix - and Brawn are widely tipped to have the fastest car on the grid.

[Senninha]

All 3 cars have been deemed to be legal and within the rules so will race this weekend.

BMW's claim got kicked out anyway so only 3 teams complained. This being F1, you can bet your house on the fact that if these 3 teams with the now legal diffusor are the first 3 rows of the grid, then the moaning teams will appeal the decision.

Ross Brawn was saying that if you have read the rule book, then the design is there in black and white. The other teams are only complaining becasue we are fast.

Interestingly Maclaren DIDN'T complain. If their car is such a slow old dog then you would of thought they would be in there trying to slow the competition down. Maybe they have been sand-bagging through testing?


TheSebringOne Wrote: Budgets we all know have to be cut because its getting out of hand, £30m maybe too small & £50-60m is more realistic, but please don't set it at a low level, where individual car design will be lost. If all car designs were the same, it would be boring & theres no innovation freedom!


If you go back and read the article you got this info from you will see that it in no way restricts car design. All it is saying is that the FIA would like a £30m limit (may be revised upwards) and if you can deliver within this then you will be allowed a lot more flexibility around innovation. Should you choose to exceed this number then you will be more heavily governed.

As for it being boring if all the cars were the same ... I guess you dont watch many other formulas that are far more restricted. Results in these are almost entirely down to the driver and his engineer obtaining the best from a set basic build ... and they are rarely boring races to watch.

regards, Paul

[WhyOne?]

BMW's claim got kicked out anyway so only 3 teams complained. This being F1, you can bet your house on the fact that if these 3 teams with the now legal diffusor are the first 3 rows of the grid, then the moaning teams will appeal the decision.



Appeal was lodged within a couple of hours of the protest being rejected.

But th eappeal wont be heard until 'after 5th April', so we will not know the results of the Australian & Malaysian GP's until well after the races are completed.

Less than ideal!

[Senninha]

Appeal was lodged within a couple of hours of the protest being rejected.

But th eappeal wont be heard until 'after 5th April', so we will not know the results of the Australian & Malaysian GP's until well after the races are completed.

Less than ideal!

And why do we continue to put up with this?

- It is a race over a measured distance (or time)
- the first one to cross the line wins
- to start the race the FIA declares you to be a legal entrant
- end of discussion

Where is Mosley's backbone? All he need do is declare them legal and tell the others to stop moaning. They can then go a build a copy as quick as possible. We can watch some racing to which we will know the results.

regards

[BlueNSX]

Brawn GP aka Virgin BGP aka Honda

The Later should have at least stayed in at some level - I hope this changes with the new success being enjoyed and perhaps the delayed launch of a certain car.

1 great britain Jenson Button (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879011.stm) 22 Brawn-Mercedes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879039.stm) 1:26.202 2 brazil Rubens Barrichello (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879012.stm) 23 Brawn-Mercedes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879039.stm) 1:26.505 3 germany Sebastian Vettel (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879002.stm) 15 Red Bull-Renault (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879036.stm) 1:26.830 4 poland Robert Kubica (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7878976.stm) 5 BMW Sauber (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879027.stm) 1:26.914 5 germany Nico Rosberg (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879007.stm) 16 Williams-Toyota (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879037.stm) 1:26.973 6 germany Timo Glock (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7878991.stm) 10 Toyota (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879032.stm) 1:26.975 7 brazil Felipe Massa (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7878973.stm) 3 Ferrari (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879025.stm) 1:27.033 8 italy Jarno Trulli (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7878990.stm) 9 Toyota (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879032.stm) 1:27.127 9 finland Kimi Raikkonen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7878971.stm) 4 Ferrari (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879025.stm) 1:27.163 10 australia Mark Webber (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7878998.stm) 14 Red Bull-Renault (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879036.stm) 1:27.246 11 germany Nick Heidfeld (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7878980.stm) 6 BMW Sauber (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879027.stm) 1:25.504 12 spain Fernando Alonso (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7878982.stm) 7 Renault (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879030.stm) 1:25.605 13 japan Kazuki Nakajima (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879009.stm) 17 Williams-Toyota (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879037.stm) 1:25.607 14 finland Heikki Kovalainen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7878968.stm) 2 McLaren-Mercedes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879023.stm) 1:25.726 15 great britain Lewis Hamilton (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7878964.stm) 1 McLaren-Mercedes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879023.stm)
16 switzerland Sebastien Buemi (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7878992.stm) 12 Toro Rosso-Ferrari (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879034.stm) 1:26.503 17 brazil Nelson Piquet Jr (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7878987.stm) 8 Renault (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879030.stm) 1:26.598 18 italy Giancarlo Fisichella (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879015.stm) 21 Force India-Mercedes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879042.stm) 1:26.677 19 germany Adrian Sutil (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879014.stm) 20 Force India-Mercedes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879042.stm) 1:26.742 20 france Sebastien Bourdais (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7878995.stm) 11 Toro Rosso-Ferrari (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/drivers_and_teams/7879034.stm) 1:26.964

[NSXGB]

And there was me thinking Maclaren were holding back...never mind, another Brit on pole. It's about time Jensen had a decent car beneath him. :)

[AR]

I recorded it and watched it when I woke up, it was superb. It was funny how Eddie Jordan and David Coultard keep having a go at each other. then when they interviewed Branson Jordan had a go at him too!