NSX-R vs BMW M6

[Sudesh]

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1522782/nsx_r_vs_bmw_m6/

[AR]

Still leaves the Big Elephant in the room out, the 200 plus MPH M6 top speed.

[TheSebringOne]

PWR, nuff said! :)

Also the shape of the new 6 never did anything for me! Quite like the old 6 though.

[NoelWatson]

Still leaves the Big Elephant in the room out, the 200 plus MPH M6 top speed.

And the fact that the M6 will do the quarter mile in closer to 12 seconds than 13

[TheSebringOne]

Is this another Japanese bias race fix? Have we conned again? Or the 0-60 is the only geniune quickest part, but the M6 is quicker in all other departments?

[JQD84983]

PWR definitely in the NSX's favour. I think over 0.5 mile or 1 mile the M6 would have been away.

Looks of M6 still ****e compared to Honda. And 15 years or so newer!

[NoelWatson]

PWR definitely in the NSX's favour. I think over 0.5 mile or 1 mile the M6 would have been away.

Looks of M6 still ****e compared to Honda. And 15 years or so newer!

i think the M6 would be quicker to the ton

[eclipse1501]

That film was aired by the GT Channel originally with English subtitles. I seem to remember the M6 driver being very underwhelmed with the BMW. The films were titled drag races and were really short sprints which suited the NSXR. After the M6 round 2 was against an RS4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5GqAEbPNJU&feature=fvsr

[TheSebringOne]

Are there any official figures for the 02+ Type R? Some say to 60 mph as low as 4.4, but others 4.8? I like the part at the end of the RS4 drag race, when they said they should still make this car but with 350 - 400 bhp & Honda should still keep this car & go ahead with the V10 sports car too.

[NoelWatson]

Are there any official figures for the 02+ Type R? Some say to 60 mph as low as 4.4, but others 4.8? I like the part at the end of the RS4 drag race, when they said they should still make this car but with 350 - 400 bhp & Honda should still keep this car & go ahead with the V10 sports car too.


http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32686

The "standard" 02+ car was quicker!!

[markc]

PWR definitely in the NSX's favour. I think over 0.5 mile or 1 mile the M6 would have been away.

Looks of M6 still ****e compared to Honda. And 15 years or so newer!

Err nope... M6 has a significantly better PWR (Power to weight ratio) than the NSX-R. A short sprint like the 1/4 mile favours the lighter car but either that particular M6 was a duffer or the driver forgot to push the "M" button which releases an extra 100hp and gives you the full 500hp.

As has been said, performance once rolling is a better display of power and this video of an M6 out gunning a 997Turbo, 2-1 (at Bruntingthorpe), shows what the M6 is really capable of... http://www.drivers-republic.com/dr_tv/index.cfm?videoid=6c31e8668d004424950145bdc59eeb64&area=videos

Cheers

Mark

[NoelWatson]

Err nope... M6 has a significantly better PWR (Power to weight ratio) than the NSX-R. A short sprint like the 1/4 mile favours the lighter car but either that particular M6 was a duffer or the driver forgot to push the "M" button which releases an extra 100hp and gives you the full 500hp.

As has been said, performance once rolling is a better display of power and this video of an M6 out gunning a 997Turbo, 2-1 (at Bruntingthorpe), shows what the M6 is really capable of... http://www.drivers-republic.com/dr_tv/index.cfm?videoid=6c31e8668d004424950145bdc59eeb64&area=videos

Cheers

Mark

NSX-R vs 997 Carrera S

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fN35RGIkRg

[markc]

NSX-R vs 997 Carrera S

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fN35RGIkRg

Yes that looks about right. A perfect launch of the NSX might see it closer to the C4S over a 1/4 mile but you just have to look at the NSX-R vs 997 Turbo in the next round to see how much faster a Turbo is.

Cheers

Mark

[jaytip]

What was a BIG supprise for me was just how bad the NSXs' brakes where.
It may be the pinacle of Honda supercardom but the reality is the NSX just doesn't cut it anymore in performance stakes.I still love the NSX but seeing the Type-R getting beaten by the Carrerra S (never mind a GT3,GT3RS,and turbo)makes sad viewing.

[TheSebringOne]

The main problem is the lower BHP, even though its a lighter in weight than the Porkers, I would think it would be much closer around the track where the lower weight comes into its own. I think it will be quicker than the S around certain tracks, but not the GT3s or TT?

[markc]

What was a BIG supprise for me was just how bad the NSXs' brakes where.
It may be the pinacle of Honda supercardom but the reality is the NSX just doesn't cut it anymore in performance stakes.I still love the NSX but seeing the Type-R getting beaten by the Carrerra S (never mind a GT3,GT3RS,and turbo)makes sad viewing.

The brakes on that particular car could have been killed in earlier or repeated stops. The NSX brakes are usually praised for road work they just lack the sheer size and therefore heat (energy) dissipation potential for repeated hard use i.e. on track.

Time and technology moves on. The NSX, especially the NSX-R, is still a very fast car. Even when it first came out it was no faster than the competing Carrera (964) and Ferrari (348) in a straight line but the overall performance package was superior. The 1997/98 upgrade (3.2, 6spd) kept it on the pace of the 993 (non Turbo) and F355 but the 2002 upgrade wasn't enough to cope with the 996 and F360 let alone todays 997 and F430.

No need to be sad though, it doesn't make it a bad or slow car AND you don't have the embarrassment of having to own up to being a Porsche or Ferrari owner :)

Cheers

Mark

[Silver Surfer]

Despite it's age, it still gets the respect it deserves from owners of other sporting Marques who knows about cars.....that's good enough for me! :cool:

SS

[Senninha]

The main problem is the lower BHP, even though its a lighter in weight than the Porkers, I would think it would be much closer around the track where the lower weight comes into its own. I think it will be quicker than the S around certain tracks, but not the GT3s or TT?

James,

You should look out for the Pistonheads drive in our neck of the woods and go out for the day. You will very quickly change your thinking and realise that on Her Majesty's highway, circa 270bhp is NOT the main problem.

On real roads the only true weakness in the NSX is the brakes. And this will be highlighted against more modern machinery, particularly a GT3 with the ceramic option.

I've done a few of these and apart from meeting new people, I have learned so much about the NSX. I have also recieved many surprised comments from owners of newer, higher bhp cars that have been more than a little surprised by the performance the NSX delivers.

On track could be a very different story. Whereas over bumpy A or B roads I could stay with the GT3 RS (except for those awesome brakes!!!), we both agreed that out on a smooth race-track, he would be gone.

It really is a great day ... and I ended the last one thinking there's nothing else for the money I'd rather have.

Mark,

One point of interest re brakes. It was on fast twisty b roads where I have suffered from fade after 45mins to an hours swift progress. On track was ok.

I have subsequently changed to R discs + Mu's, braided hoses and enlarged deflectors with no issues.

Out on track I've not had any issues (its usually the tyres that go off first),

regards,

[markc]

On real roads the only true weakness in the NSX is the brakes. And this will be highlighted against more modern machinery, particularly a GT3 with the ceramic option.

I've done a few of these and apart from meeting new people, I have learned so much about the NSX. I have also recieved many surprised comments from owners of newer, higher bhp cars that have been more than a little surprised by the performance the NSX delivers.

On track could be a very different story. Whereas over bumpy A or B roads I could stay with the GT3 RS (except for those awesome brakes!!!), we both agreed that out on a smooth race-track, he would be gone.

It really is a great day ... and I ended the last one thinking there's nothing else for the money I'd rather have.

Mark,

One point of interest re brakes. It was on fast twisty b roads where I have suffered from fade after 45mins to an hours swift progress. On track was ok.

I have subsequently changed to R discs + Mu's, braided hoses and enlarged deflectors with no issues.

Out on track I've not had any issues (its usually the tyres that go off first),

regards,

Ceramic brakes come with their own problem in that they don't work that well until upto temperature. Combined with their enormous cost I'd still go with steel anchors unless my steed was a pure track car.

Remember that the GT3RS has super sticky rubber on as well which, through grip on the road, do more to shorten braking distances than the brakes themselves. They also put more energy (read heat) into the brakes cooking/killing them earlier if they're in any way marginal which the NSX's are.

Paul, I also have Project MU pads and bigger deflectors ie a similar setup to you. Have you also been out on track for 45mins at a time? I usually limit myself to 20min sessions but have done 40-45min ones on occassion. It's hard work on the driver let alone the poor old car :)

Oddly, and despite similar pre-preparation on each occassion, my brake performance has varied depending on the track. I always renew fluid prior to a track day or big trip and am on my second set of MU's.

Donnington International was generally fine with good brake performance. I was quite new to the car and probably not pushing too hard though.
Silverstone GP circuit gave me issues... severe brake judder. Ambient temperature was quite high that day. The brakes recovered after the event and were fine on the road.
Bedford Autodrome full GT circuit was also good. I could induce judder if I really went for it but just slightly backing off in the braking areas mostly resolved it.
On the Isle of Man I had some juddering again when really gunning it over the mountain.

Now tyres are another story. Road tyres, especially newish ones with deep tread, "go off" i.e. get too hot so the tread blocks move around horribly, but this can mask brake limitations. Fit trackday rubber and you get grippy consistant tyres which allow you to exploit the brakes more... so you end up killing them!

IMHO the brakes are marginal and just not up to hard track use. The only real answer bigger discs, and possibly calipers as well, all round while keeping close to the standard front rear bias. I'm saving up as I type ;)

Cheers

Mark

[TheSebringOne]

If brakes is the main weak point of the NSX, then why are Type R disc more better than OEM? I understand that they are the same diameter front & rear on the 1997+ or 3.2. I understand that the other factors such as harder/more performance pad material has its benefits, braided lines ensuring fluid pressure & air deflectors for channelling more cool air to the brakes.

[AR]

Even when it first came out it was no faster than the competing Carrera (964) and Ferrari (348) in a straight line

You sure about this I am sure it was faster than the 348. Well mine is.( where is the evil smiley ? )

[AR]

If brakes is the main weak point of the NSX, then why are Type R disc more better than OEM? I understand that they are the same diameter front & rear on the 1997+ or 3.2. I understand that the other factors such as harder/more performance pad material has its benefits, braided lines ensuring fluid pressure & air deflectors for channelling more cool air to the brakes.

Different metal and temper compounded with different pad compounds and better airflow.

Just my .2 p and all that. :)

Cheers,

AR

[markc]

You sure about this I am sure it was faster than the 348. Well mine is.( where is the evil smiley ? )

Yes, most magazines recorded mid 5's (0-60) and 158-161mph for the early NSX while the 348 was low 5's and 165mph+. I'll dig out my copy of Car Magazine, circa Oct 1990, when they compared the NSX with the 348, Carrera 2 (964) as well with an Esprit Turbo.

The performance differance is barely enough to notice when running side by side but if either car is off colour it'll be the slower one.

Remember it's just as easy, probably easier, to release a few more ponies (or take some weight out) from the Porsche and Ferrari as it is the NSX.

There was a particularly fast 348 at one of the VMAX days. It ran 166mph into a strong headwind that reduced Carrera 993's and M3's to about 150mph!


Different metal and temper compounded with different pad compounds and better airflow.

Just my .2 p and all that. :)

Cheers,

AR

Which adds up to 0.0001% improvement ;)

I'm not sure I believe the metal temper story, did they dip them a slightly differant acid OR add one more heat/cool cycle OR hold the discs in for for 2 more secs? If this works so well why not do the same to the non grooved ones?

Airflow, for cooling, is the same i.e. same deflectors, disc ventilation. The grooves help the pad gases escape which is a slightly differant thing. Of course the grooves actually reduce the friction area.

Fundamentally the discs are too small to absorb then release the heat generated in hard circuit driving. You can fiddle around the details and find some small improvements but this is an occassion where bigger really is better :)

Cheers

Mark

[simonprelude]

Fundamentally the discs are too small to absorb then release the heat generated in hard circuit driving. You can fiddle around the details and find some small improvements but this is an occassion where bigger really is better :)

Cheers

Mark

A marginal improvement can be made from 2 piece discs, but I'm not sure that even that makes enough difference. Heat dissipation is certainly improved.

[Senninha]

If brakes is the main weak point of the NSX, then why are Type R disc more better than OEM? I understand that they are the same diameter front & rear on the 1997+ or 3.2. I understand that the other factors such as harder/more performance pad material has its benefits, braided lines ensuring fluid pressure & air deflectors for channelling more cool air to the brakes.

Is this a question or question and part answer to your own question?

NSX-R for the 02 variant differs by having grooved discs, more aggressive pads and larger pistons in the calipers. Deflectors and hoses I beleive are as all other NA2.

MY set up is R discs, braided hoses, MU's and oversized deflectors. Nex tstep if I take it would be to increase disc sizes as previously discussed with Mark when looking at the AP and RB discs.

Mark,

On track at CC and Donnigton and due to the openess of both circuits, brakes have performed well. I agree that more track focussed tyres may well change the outcome. If only I had some sticky rubber I could use ;)

regards, Paul

[TheSebringOne]

Paul, I'm confused sometimes with my Q & A! :D

Should have known just to stick to the disc only! :laugh:

[AR]

Airflow, for cooling, is the same i.e. same deflectors, disc ventilation. The grooves help the pad gases escape which is a slightly differant thing. Of course the grooves actually reduce the friction area.

Mark,

The disc guars were different on my NA1R than in my NA2 or my current NA1.

As for the 348 I can only speak from my experience. I have a few mags at home, but one mag even went as far as calling the NSX the better car and the 348 the better exotic. It seems most mag writers get all moist when it comes to Ferraris.

Cheers,

Ary

[gumball]

The BMW is a fat pile of junk(technical term), so was bound to have trouble getting off the line. The NSX-R can actually use all it's power. Further down the track I'm sure the fat pile of junk caught up and passed.