Old chestnut - coupe vs targa?

[havoc]

How much difference really is there?

I've read a few comments on here, and used the search engine, but surprisingly there doesn't seem to be a definitive comparison between the two cars.

I know the response is "drive them for yourself", but that's not easy given the rarity of suitable cars and the desire not to waste an owner's time...

So - anyone driven / owned both who can comment?

Thanks very much,

Martin.

[AR]

How much difference really is there?

I've read a few comments on here, and used the search engine, but surprisingly there doesn't seem to be a definitive comparison between the two cars.

I know the response is "drive them for yourself", but that's not easy given the rarity of suitable cars and the desire not to waste an owner's time...

So - anyone driven / owned both who can comment?

Thanks very much,

Martin.

I have driven both and I could feel the extra weight compared to a 1994 nsx-r and 1993 coupe. For me is the extra weight and the fact that a T would have PAS.

I am sure if you tell the owners that you are serious and are just trying to make up your mind, they would not object to a test drive.

Best of luck,

AR

[WhyOne?]

When I looking for a car I decided that 'must haves' were 3.2 / 6 speed / pop-ups / manual.

I decided an auto wasnt for me and I was also reluctant to own a black car (they look tremendous when clean / polished and swirl free but are just too difficult to look after for me).

I was willing to consider either coupe or targa so long as the car satisfied my 'must haves'

I reasoned that a/ there are too few good cars about to be too fussy (it still took 11 months to find a car I liked!) and that in normal, real world public road driving I really wouldnt notice much difference.

Beyond this I am of little help as the cars I test drove were all coupes.

Good luck with the search......and if a likely looking Targa comes onto the market, dont discount it out of hand would be my advice.

[TheSebringOne]

Papa (James) is the only one I know who had a targa previously and now owns a coupe, abeit a 02+ fixed headlight version. HTH

[Ewan]

The biggest practical difference I think, is the targa car feels less stiff - not just because it lacks some of the torsional rigidity of the coupe, but also because the suspension is set to be softer. Take the roof panel off and you can really feel the flex (not in an alarming way, mind, you can just tell its there).

You'll get a bit less headroom and a bit less rear visibility (eg the 'box' on the engine cover where the -T top is stowed, basically means my rear view starts at the upper edge of the boot spoiler).

Paul (Senninha) maintains that the suspension on the -T is ideal for the UK roads, but if you want a track-day car then I'd stay definitely get the coupe.

Final consideration is that there are fewer -Ts around, so if you're fussy about colour, condition, auto/manual etc, then you may have that decision made for you. My shopping list was 3.2, manual, 02+, targa. I was tempted by a 3.2, manual, popup coupe, but then my targa came along :cool:

[havoc]

I think I'd be more bothered by the visibility and headroom, to be honest - sat in two coupes @ Gaydon and could definitely see more behind me than the targa I test drove.

With regard to track-days...dunno...lot of car to take on-track, and I've still got the ITR for track and B-roads! :D


On the subject of ride, I wouldn't want anything noticeably stiffer than the DC2 or the S2000...they seem about the limit of what's 'reasonable' on a UK road. Certainly the M3 I drove 'fidgeted' too much underneath me...

...so does that suggest Targa, or either?!?

[Silver Surfer]

Either...you will be please although the 'grass is greener' effect will always be there which ever one you choose. ;)

SS

[WhyOne?]

I wouldn't want anything noticeably stiffer than the DC2 or the S2000...they seem about the limit of what's 'reasonable' on a UK road. Certainly the M3 I drove 'fidgeted' too much underneath me...

...so does that suggest Targa, or either?!?

Well, I had an S2000 for 5 yrs / 50k miles before buying the NSX (3.2 Coupe) and I would say my NSX is more reassuring to drive than the S (much as I loved it).

[Senninha]

Paul (Senninha) maintains that the suspension on the -T is ideal for the UK roads

And this is not just compared to NSX coupe's either, but when mixing with other machinery such as 360. Gallardo, 911 ... many have commented on how well my NSX simply soaks up the great british tarmac!


I'd be more bothered by the visibility and headroom, to be honest - sat in two coupes @ Gaydon and could definitely see more behind me than the targa I test drove

You did realise mines a Targa .. ;) I've simply changed the engine cover to the OEM NSX-R item. The roof stows in the boot or stays at home :)

regards, Paul

[havoc]

OK, cool, so the coupe will ride like an S2000 but more-planted/secure, while the targa will be softer-edged but soak-up a B-road even better then...

...that doesn't help! ;)

(Seriously...sounds like I'd be happy with either. So, does anyone know anything about a certain '01 silver targa xxx DPT which has gone-up on PH but not on here???)

[AR]

OK, cool, so the coupe will ride like an S2000 but more-planted/secure, while the targa will be softer-edged but soak-up a B-road even better then...

...that doesn't help! ;)

(Seriously...sounds like I'd be happy with either. So, does anyone know anything about a certain '01 silver targa xxx DPT which has gone-up on PH but not on here???)


I don't know anything about it, but if I was you I would be looking at the 02 coupe for 3k more and see if I could get the price down.

Just my 2p.

BTW if you buy a targa and want coupe suspension or harder is not a big deal to change.

[Senninha]

Ok,

Here's what you do .... for the road

Find the best Targa you can

Add the following;

NSX-R front chassis bars to reduce flex / sharpen steering
NSX-R front anti roll bar to keep the front end flatter (will induce Oversteer)
Type S rear anti roll bar - resets the f2r balance and winds out the over steer.

Result; you still have the bump and rebound control/comfort of the targa but with all the 'finesse' the coupe drivers crave about.

BTW .. the EPS only assists steering at low speed when you need it and offers a great weight and feedback at speed.

The End :)

[AR]

The End :)ha ha ha
All your chassis bars are belong to us


All kidding aside, imagine a coupe with R Bars!!!

With regards to the EPS, it weight more, costs a bomb to fix and for sure it does not give youy an "eternal sportmind", or is that the CCU???

[Senninha]

........All kidding aside, imagine a coupe with R Bars!!!


I've seen, been in and followed one and all it does is hop around on our lovely b roads whilst I simply and effortlessly drive past ... I'll leave you to fight your way and I'll be waiting, relaxed and the bar :beer:

[markc]

Ok,

Here's what you do .... for the road

Find the best Targa you can

Add the following;

NSX-R front chassis bars to reduce flex / sharpen steering
NSX-R front anti roll bar to keep the front end flatter (will induce Oversteer)
Type S rear anti roll bar - resets the f2r balance and winds out the over steer.

Result; you still have the bump and rebound control/comfort of the targa but with all the 'finesse' the coupe drivers crave about.

BTW .. the EPS only assists steering at low speed when you need it and offers a great weight and feedback at speed.

The End :)

Enough of this Targa's are best nonsense, Coupe's rule... always have, always will :)

The NSX-R chassis bars are, for their relatively little cost, a sensible addition to either a Targa or Coupe. Another sensible addition to the Targa would be roof strengthening bars... ohh but then it'd be a Coupe ;)

If only it were as simple as tinkering about with roll bars, it won't make much difference. Spring rates (stiffer), with appropriate dampers, are the only way to make a real difference and the Coupe platform can make the best use of them.

In truth both Coupe and Targa NSX's a relatively softly suspended by current sports car standards. Honda made them progressively firmer during their 15 year production run to keep up. NSX's also run on relatively high profile tyres by current standards. These factors combine to make the NSX a fairly soft car.

The upside is that it rides very well, which is also good for slower and straighter UK B roads, the downside is body roll, which is bad for faster roads with longer sweeping corners.

If you plan the occasional track day to learn your NSX (as you surely should) a standard car produces lots of roll on a circuit, picking up the inside rear wheel under power and either spinning it (the wheel) if you have TCS switched off, or if left on triggering the TCS system to kill power. When decelerating or braking the roll will initiate oversteer and you need to be very smart to catch it.

Of course both are great cars. Ultimately the Targa is a touch "softer" all round, softer, heavier and less precise BUT the Coupe can't give the wind the hair option. Only you can decide what's most important to you.

Cheers

Mark

[AR]

I've seen, been in and followed one and all it does is hop around on our lovely b roads whilst I simply and effortlessly drive past ... I'll leave you to fight your way and I'll be waiting, relaxed and the bar :beer:

Point taken :)

That would be a nice Green Tea for me.

[NoelWatson]

Ok,


NSX-R front anti roll bar to keep the front end flatter (will induce Oversteer)


Surely adding a stiffer anti roll bar makes that end of the car more liable to lose grip first by shifting weight onto the outer wheel?

[NoelWatson]

If you plan the occasional track day to learn your NSX (as you surely should) a standard car produces lots of roll on a circuit, picking up the inside rear wheel under power and either spinning it (the wheel) if you have TCS switched off, or if left on triggering the TCS system to kill power. When decelerating or braking the roll will initiate oversteer and you need to be very smart to catch it.




Is this for the lower speed corners, as at Bruntingthorpe, mine nudged into oversteer before triggering TCS rather than picking up an inside wheel (this was on 70-80 mph bends)?

[Senninha]

Surely adding a stiffer anti roll bar makes that end of the car more liable to lose grip first by shifting weight onto the outer wheel?

Which is why I added the rear ARB from the Typs S to keep the f2r balance ...

Mark,

Love the details in the response and as you rightly point out, both are great cars.

So long as they are being used and well maintained I hope we'll see the NSX on our roads for many years to come!

regards, Paul

[havoc]

Some great replies, thanks all, esp. Senninha.

£30k coupe? Can't stretch that high (the targa is too much at sticker-price, hoping he'll drop if I do go look at it...), and I think I prefer the pop-ups anyway (although the facelift front-bumper does look better...).

Cheers again,

M.

[NSXGB]

All kidding aside, imagine a coupe with R Bars!!!



That one has gone straight over my head. . . Anyone explain pls?

[AR]

That one has gone straight over my head. . . Anyone explain pls?

Hi mate I was on about the NSX-R chassis bars.

[markc]

Is this for the lower speed corners, as at Bruntingthorpe, mine nudged into oversteer before triggering TCS rather than picking up an inside wheel (this was on 70-80 mph bends)?

First question, were your tyres properly up to temperature? By properly I mean done at least one lap at 3/4 pace and a couple of hight speed braking manouvers. If not the tyres won't be working yet and the chassis would be unpredictabe.

The car is more likely to trigger TCS at slower speeds simply because more power (actually torque) is reaching the tyre/road interface i.e. you're in a lower gear. It depends on the radius of the turn as to whether the chassis is rolling enough to unload the inside rear wheel.

70-80mph suggests you were in 3rd gear? Sounds a bit like "Club" corner at Silverstone where the second half of the turn is fast and you're accelerating hard. My car does not oversteer here but the TCS light blinks away. The only other place where TCS is activated is at "Priory" which is one of the slowest corners on the track. The car does want to oversteer on the exit before TCS kicks in. Of course my car is quite a lot more firmly sprung than yours so directly comparison isn't fair.

The attached graphic of Silverstone circuit shows the location and radius of the turns described...

Before anyone says I should be running on circuit with TCS off, I just don't find it that instrusive.

Cheers

Mark

[havoc]

...but if I was you I would be looking at the 02 coupe for 3k more and see if I could get the price down.

Just my 2p.


Did just that this evening.

Too expensive (they wouldn't drop below £29k), and while the car seemed straight enough, a number of other things didn't gel...and you know the old saying "you buy the car off the right person...":-

- trade is run out of a walled-off driveway attached to one of the houses. In an old, narrow residential estate. Not the same place the photos were taken...not even close, from what I could tell of the area!

- business run by 3 brothers, allegedly for 12 years. The limited company set-up in the same name as the business and registered to that house (which I think is the parents of the brothers!?!) was set-up on 1/4/2009. :think:

- the cars up at 41k miles but is showing 44k - apparently they've been using it (3k in a couple of weeks?!?) :think:

- the car was properly warm when I showed up (i.e. I wasn't going reaching in the engine-bay) - not sure how long it'd been standing, but it had either been used a lot that afternoon or had been freshly driven! :think:

- on start up there was rather a rattle from the engine, which settled down quite quickly - is that normal??? Don't recall any of my 4-pot Hondas sounding that rattly...

- they only had two keys (no grey/red master key - again is that normal?) and were locking/unlocking using the key not any remote fob (which I didn't see any of!!!) :think:

Re: the car, in case anyone else is interested - owned by a Dr Peter Wade (I think that's the right surname) from new, serviced by Yeomans Littlehampton. Drove straight, engine felt very strong once warm, looked straight (possible respray to pass. door but very prof'ly done if so). But I'm no mechanic, so...



Anyway, to answer my own question:-
- rear-viz was notably better
- engine was notably stronger than the 3.0...those are 276 VERY fit ponies!
- ride was notably firmer than a targa on OE 1995 wheels...not terrible at all, but am inclined to agree with Senninha - a tweaked targa (or possibly an old 3.0 Coupe on OE rims) would have the best B-road ride!
- PAS was odd - see other thread!

...so I'm definitely considering a targa now. Silver looked OK, too...still not as good as red or either blue, but it wasn't bad at all...

[AR]

- on start up there was rather a rattle from the engine, which settled down quite quickly - is that normal??? Don't recall any of my 4-pot Hondas sounding that rattly...

- they only had two keys (no grey/red master key - again is that normal?) and were locking/unlocking using the key not any remote fob (which I didn't see any of!!!) :think:


The price is not too bad but some of the things you mentioned do raoise some eyebrows, but could be all normal. maybe they really like the car and drive it a lot, hence the mileage. How do they drive it is anyones guess.

The rattle could be could be the valve clearances out of spec.

It should have the master key.

Keep looking and now you know what you want, so it makes it easier, that is unless you find a coupe for a good deal from the right person!

Cheers,

AR

[havoc]

Yeah...except for the PAS thing...need to have a think about that otherwise I'll end-up getting an old 3.0 just to avoid the PAS...