PAS - how easy to fully disconnect?

[havoc]

Trying do decide between a PAS and non-PAS car. Would prefer the 3.2 and 'newer-ness' of a later car, but undecided over the PAS at the moment.

Now I know the rack's different, but it doesn't look THAT different a ratio, so:-
- is the design of the column different on the PAS cars due to the (expected) lower-stresses through having the PAS system? i.e. would it be a bad idea to disconnect the PAS or not?
- if not, does anyone know whether the electric motor can be disconnected from the rack without too much difficulty? I'm not talking pulling the fuse - I'd want to remove the motor completely from contact with the rack, so as not to put any stresses through the unpowered motor.


Note that this is just a thought at the moment, i.e. buy a PAS car, then if the PAS annoys too much, disconnect it but in such a way that it can be properly re-connected prior to sale, and without having put any undesigned stresses through any components (I ain't silly... ;) ).

Thanks all,

M.

[Sudesh]

A little bit of talk here:

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80587

[Hagasan]

Trying do decide between a PAS and non-PAS car. Would prefer the 3.2 and 'newer-ness' of a later car, but undecided over the PAS at the moment.

Now I know the rack's different, but it doesn't look THAT different a ratio, so:-
- is the design of the column different on the PAS cars due to the (expected) lower-stresses through having the PAS system? i.e. would it be a bad idea to disconnect the PAS or not?
- if not, does anyone know whether the electric motor can be disconnected from the rack without too much difficulty? I'm not talking pulling the fuse - I'd want to remove the motor completely from contact with the rack, so as not to put any stresses through the unpowered motor.


Note that this is just a thought at the moment, i.e. buy a PAS car, then if the PAS annoys too much, disconnect it but in such a way that it can be properly re-connected prior to sale, and without having put any undesigned stresses through any components (I ain't silly... ;) ).

Thanks all,

M.

The motor and rack is one piece. If the fuse is removed obviously the rack will lose the assitance. There are only really two major components, the rack and the contol unit under the passenger footwell.

There are a lot of things that can affect/effect the perceived steering feel.....Tyres/pressures, suspension components, ie dampers/springs, anti-rollbars, geometry set-up, wheel offsets etc etc. It will all add up to or subtract to the feel......

[Papalazarou]

I've driven a fair few NSX's and they all felt different;

My 1996 manual Targa felt a little wooden but not too artificial. I also drove the car for a few weeks without pas when the control unit failed and it was pretty shocking at lower speeds (heavy at speeds lowe than 40mph) due I guess to the variable ratio steering rack.
I've also driven a couple of non pas early cars and they felt a little more direct than the 96 car with plenty of feel. Obviously heavier at low speed. Both cars had original wheels so the handling was completely different.
I've driven a couple of pre facelift 3.2's and they felt very similar to my facelift, but they had oem 16's on the front which made the cars feel a little less precise until I settled into the car.
The current car I have, a 2002 facelift feels the best IMO; it's a smoother feel than the 96 car, certainly not wooden and definately not notchy. Slightly more intuitive than the 98/2000 cars but really very little in it.

Basically, I would agree with Hagasan; steering is largely dependent on suspension set up....wheels etc and obviously personal preference. One mans precise is another mans twitchy.
Given the choice for the road, I'd go for a facelift car. smooth steering, no notchiness, cummunicative and with the later suspension changes, a precise ride.

Cheers,

James.

[havoc]

Thanks for that.

What if you can't afford a facelift?

I'm trying to decide between stretching to a 3.2 or saving my money and going for a non-PAS 3.0...haven't really decided between targa or coupe yet (drove a facelift coupe which felt about as firm as I'd want it, and a 3.0 targa with the PAS disconnected which rode like a magic carpet, but less responsive. Something in-between would be nice...

[Papalazarou]

There's very little difference in feel between a 3.2 pop-up and a facelift. But disconnecting the pas is not the answer IMO. At higher speeds it may feel better but at lower speeds it won't feel right.
There's been a lot of discussion from time to time about NSX steering and which type is better. I just think you get used to it whatever. The NSX has slow steering and a poorish lock, the steering has a certain character. It'll probably feel lethargic compared to a TVR or a Porsche, but it was designed to work with the car and once you get used to it, it'll be fine.


Cheers,


James.

[AR]

Something in-between would be nice...

3.0 coupe!

[JQD84983]

There's very little difference in feel between a 3.2 pop-up and a facelift. But disconnecting the pas is not the answer IMO. At higher speeds it may feel better but at lower speeds it won't feel right.
There's been a lot of discussion from time to time about NSX steering and which type is better. I just think you get used to it whatever. The NSX has slow steering and a poorish lock, the steering has a certain character. It'll probably feel lethargic compared to a TVR or a Porsche, but it was designed to work with the car and once you get used to it, it'll be fine.


Cheers,


James.

I couldn't agree more. Ayrton Senna might have been able to tell the difference on a track but I think you are kidding yourself if you think in normal driving it is going to make much difference.

[Senninha]

There's very little difference in feel between a 3.2 pop-up and a facelift. But disconnecting the pas is not the answer IMO. At higher speeds it may feel better but at lower speeds it won't feel right.
The NSX has slow steering and a poorish lock, the steering has a certain character. ....... but it was designed to work with the car and once you get used to it, it'll be fine.

Cheers,

James.

If your budget covers a 3.2 pop up then that would be my target car.

I've driven several with and without PAS but prefer my own car. As James says, it was designed for the car, it works well.

More importantly, and as I've often advised, you are stepping into a different league of performance and handling characteristics. Whichever NSX you buy, please, please, please take your time to get to know the car. It is in no way dangerous but it can bite and has caught a few in the past. When I bought mine it was post Elise and S2k ownership so I had done a couple of years of daily rwd motoring. It will feel very different than your ITR (obviously), but dont think that because you can hit 8k in 3rd on your favourite back road, you will do the same jumping into the NSX.

When I bought mine I took time with the car going out early on quiet roads, and to a couple of low key track events to get to know the car. This has paid dividends in helping me grow confidence in the NSX capabilities which still far exceed my driving skill.

AS JQD says, I'm sure Aryton could tell the difference in steering feel, chassis stiffness and even tyre pressures when evaluating the NSX. Very few of us can/could tell some of these differences and should simply benefit from his ability, Honda's test programme and enjoy the NSX.

Good luck finding your NSX

regards, Paul

[NSXGB]

AS JQD says, I'm sure Aryton could tell the difference in steering feel, chassis stiffness and even tyre pressures when evaluating the NSX. Very few of us can/could tell some of these differences and should simply benefit from his ability, Honda's test programme and enjoy the NSX.

Good luck finding your NSX

regards, Paul

....you forgot 'slight changes in engine management map'....they called him The Human Dyno, I'm reliably informed...:)

[markc]

My 1996 manual Targa felt a little wooden but not too artificial. I also drove the car for a few weeks without pas when the control unit failed and it was pretty shocking at lower speeds (heavy at speeds lowe than 40mph) due I guess to the variable ratio steering rack.
I've also driven a couple of non pas early cars and they felt a little more direct than the 96 car with plenty of feel. Obviously heavier at low speed. Both cars had original wheels so the handling was completely different.
I've driven a couple of pre facelift 3.2's and they felt very similar to my facelift, but they had oem 16's on the front which made the cars feel a little less precise until I settled into the car.
The current car I have, a 2002 facelift feels the best IMO; it's a smoother feel than the 96 car, certainly not wooden and definately not notchy. Slightly more intuitive than the 98/2000 cars but really very little in it.

Basically, I would agree with Hagasan; steering is largely dependent on suspension set up....wheels etc and obviously personal preference. One mans precise is another mans twitchy.
Given the choice for the road, I'd go for a facelift car. smooth steering, no notchiness, cummunicative and with the later suspension changes, a precise ride.

The EPS control unit was changed for the 3.2ltr cars so could explain the differant feel between it and the '96 car.

The EPS system is, in theory, the same for all the 3.2ltr cars so it likely that tyre (make/size/pressures) and suspension (alignment) differances cause any differance in feel. Honda may have made a few undocumented improvements though. I suspect tyre pressure will have the most marked effect. Experiment with differant pressures and monitor them closely.


What if you can't afford a facelift?

Well, you can't have one of those then can you ;)


I'm trying to decide between stretching to a 3.2 or saving my money and going for a non-PAS 3.0...haven't really decided between targa or coupe yet (drove a facelift coupe which felt about as firm as I'd want it, and a 3.0 targa with the PAS disconnected which rode like a magic carpet, but less responsive. Something in-between would be nice...

If it's a daily driver I don't think you'll regret going for a EPS car. Not only is the steering heavy at parking speeds on a non EPS car, but the wheel needs even more turning due to the fixed ratio of the rack.


Trying do decide between a PAS and non-PAS car. Would prefer the 3.2 and 'newer-ness' of a later car, but undecided over the PAS at the moment....

Not all 3ltr's are equal either. Later cars ('95-'96) got the "improved" gearing of the JDM cars. You can't get that improved gearing and no EPS unless you buy a JDM (imported) car or change the gearbox in a UK car.


Now I know the rack's different, but it doesn't look THAT different a ratio, so:-
- is the design of the column different on the PAS cars due to the (expected) lower-stresses through having the PAS system? i.e. would it be a bad idea to disconnect the PAS or not?...

The variable ratio of the EPS cars means the steering is slower around dead centre i.e. going in a straight line, but faster once on lock i.e. in a turn.

Steering column is pretty much the same. The column itself won't make any differance anyway.

As you say the power supply can be disconnected from the motor by removeing a fuse to test what it feels like without assistance. The US only Zanardi edition alegedly runs the EPS rack sans EPS control unit etc. I'm not sure this is definately the case but if so would demonstrate that no harm will come to the rack by denying it assistance.

Many have tried removeing the fuse on their EPS cars. Some like it, most don't. Remember these peeps all have the option of trying both, back to back, though.


- if not, does anyone know whether the electric motor can be disconnected from the rack without too much difficulty? I'm not talking pulling the fuse - I'd want to remove the motor completely from contact with the rack, so as not to put any stresses through the unpowered motor....

The electric motor cannot be physically removed. Take a look at the link Hagasan posted to see a pic of the physical layout... http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Electric_Power_Steering

I suppose it's possible to take the rack apart and remove the mechanical connection between the motor and the "Ball screw" assist part that connects mechanics and electrics? That's uncharted territory and fairly major surgery though.


3.0 coupe!

Better make that a JDM 3.0 Coupe :)

The market of NSX's is soooo small you're either going to have to wait a looooong time to find the exact spec you're after or be reeeeaaaally lucky that one becomes available. I suppose if you wait long enough a facelift car might come into you price bracket but then again they might all start to apprieciate as their modern classic status deserves :D

Cheers

Mark