What do you buy after the NSX?... [Archive]

donnac

27-08-2009, 10:37 PM

As some may see from the classifieds im currently advertising my NSX for sale, ive had it for about 18 months now and although i love it i feel it may be time for a change...only at the right price though as i have already knocked back some offers, i just dont want to give her away then regret it if i think the next car is really not all its cracked up to be :(

Ive been attending trackdays as a spectator with Caterhams and quite fancy an early Caterham 7 as a first track car.

Has anyone owned one before or after the NSX ? the thing the concerns me is the weather up here as i might not get the use of it as much as i would hope and also the NSX is such a great all rounder whereas the 7 is not really a road car (to me anyway).

Ive been surprised at the interest in the NSX so far, more than i anticipated tbh but im also worried if i do sell it then i may live to regret it, is the grass really greener on the otherside? :laugh:

I just wondered if anyone could give me an idea of what cars they bought when they sold their NSX and if they regret it now? Not really talking about going up in price as its my weekend car but something of similar or lesser value.

I had the NSX out the other day and really fell in love with her again...:cool:

Senninha

27-08-2009, 10:51 PM

I had the NSX out the other day and really fell in love with her again...:cool:

I think you've just answered your own question.

I'm not surprised you've had a lot of interest and was shocked when you put the NSX up for sale. You've invested a lot of time and TLC and yet hardly had time to enjoy it all.

If it were me, I'd ensure I had track cover and go do a few track days in the NSX.

If I were changing cars it would have to be for a very different type of car as I dont, for similar money, think you will get the same ownership benefits as the NSX offers.

Something for you to think about over your hot chocolate :)

regards, Paul

donnac

27-08-2009, 11:05 PM

I think you've just answered your own question.

I'm not surprised you've had a lot of interest and was shocked when you put the NSX up for sale. You've invested a lot of time and TLC and yet hardly had time to enjoy it all.

If it were me, I'd ensure I had track cover and go do a few track days in the NSX.

If I were changing cars it would have to be for a very different type of car as I dont, for similar money, think you will get the same ownership benefits as the NSX offers.

Something for you to think about over your hot chocolate

regards, Paul

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the reply, i know it probably seems madness but it really wouldnt like to track the NSX, ive spent too much time and energy getting her just right i couldnt ever track her, if im going on the track i want a cheaper more track orientated car which i dont feel so protective of...thats why the Caterham was mentioned.:laugh:

There is nothing concrete as yet on the buyer front and as i mentioned it will only be at a price im happy with otherwise id rather keep her safely tucked up in the garage, only to be enjoyed on nice days:),

Im currently trying to convince Donna to sell her Lotus and buy a Caterham so I can use it. Ha Ha

Who knows what the future holds...

I truely cant think of another car id rather have than the NSX which is worrying :eek::laugh: other than a track car.

gumball

28-08-2009, 07:12 AM

The thing with selling cars for "a change", is this is often followed by regret.
She's a hard act to follow.

simonprelude

28-08-2009, 09:59 AM

Unless you are adding ££'s to the money you get from the NSX then you will miss it.

DamianW

28-08-2009, 10:56 AM

Why not rent a Caterham for trackdays? They're great to drive - far better on track than a standard NSX I'm afraid to say - but I'm not so convinced by the ownership proposition.

NoelWatson

28-08-2009, 12:04 PM

I'm keeping the NSX and getting a Caterham

craigdonnelly

28-08-2009, 09:11 PM

Don't sell the NSX!!! I sold mine about a year ago and I still haven't bought a car to replace it. I have just been using my parents, sisters and girlfriends car.

I had to sell my NSX but I wish I still had it everyday. I can not think of another car for for under £40k that has the same pedigree, place in motoring history, reliability and gear change!

I am not in a place to buy an expensive car just now but I have come to the conclusion i will just wait and buy another NSX. If I had to buy another car I would consider a black 996 GT3 and Porsche has one just now of £43k...

but I wouldn't and just wait for another NSX.

Listen to another wise Scotsman and take test drives in other cars you fancy and compare them to your NSX and I suspect they won't come close have the same special feel. I used to love driving mine even in heavy traffic knowing when I saw a F355, F360, F430 or any 911 that they wouldn't be as good if it wasn't for the NSX and neither would the Mclaren F1.

NSX 2000

29-08-2009, 08:15 AM

I'm keeping the NSX and getting a Caterham

You do know that you will have to let me have a go :D

Senninha

29-08-2009, 08:46 AM

I'm getting a Caterham

Best car in the world for hands free doughnuts! As taught by Justin Wilson ... loads of fun :laugh:

michaelw

29-08-2009, 10:35 AM

I'm lucky enough to have both, a 95 NSX and a 2.0 Vauxhall Caterham. They are both totally different and I use the NSX "everyday" and the Caterham for track days and the occasional blat.

I have also taken the NSX on track 2 or 3 times and can honestly say I wished I had the Caterham every time. The NSX was brilliant on track but IMHO can't beat the Caterham for fun, the Caterham is much more forgiving and I like to slide the car around a lot. Saying that the 7 does need a fair amount spending on it to keep it going when tracking it a lot but I do drive it much harder than the NSX - on track anyway - and would think the NSX would too. Damage wise, the front wings are £60 and don't need painting, tyres are £60 each and last longer etc, etc. Not sure the same could be said for the Honda!

Saying that if I didn't have the Caterham I would use the NSX on track but always feel that I am wearing the car out when using it especially tyres, brakes etc. The brakes didn't stand up as well either but then it is a lot heavier.

If I could only have one I wouldn't hesitate to keep the NSX. As a road car it is so much better in pratical terms and probably more fun on the road too. But that hit you get in the 7 - brilliant. Saying that when it comes time to drive the 3 or so hours home from a track day I wished I was in the Honda again.

Michael.

NoelWatson

30-08-2009, 03:40 PM

You do know that you will have to let me have a go :D

As long as you give me more than five minutes notice that you are planning on attending a track day!!

donnac

03-09-2009, 09:11 PM

Having both the NSX and a Track car is not an option im afraid, we currently have 5 cars between the two of us and only two parking spaces and two single garages... something would need to go :laugh:

Ive looking into hiring one from a company in Perth so i will see how i get on :cool:

Rob_Fenn

05-09-2009, 08:12 PM

reg

05-09-2009, 10:05 PM

Caterhams are good but a little one-dimensional, they just go sideways. Not to say that isn't fun, but being mid-engined, the NSX offers more of a challenge and consequently a longer, more rewarding learning curve.

If you're not too tall, try an Exige. It can just about handle a daily drive if you're commited.

After owning an NSX and now a reasonably sorted Caterham I would say that they are chalk and cheese. I learnt more about driving within the first month with the Caterham than with any of my previous cars and the limits are way beyond even hard road use. To label the se7en as one dimensional is wrong. Turn in and corner speed is the trump card of the Caterham not hanging the back out and being untidy. The NSX is a great road/GT car and I would have another in a heartbeat if I could afford to run one alongside the Caterham.

To the OP. If you want something that is basically a big ball of fun and will not break the bank a Caterham is a very good thing to have. They are not practical and cannot match any mass production car for quality so dont expect bullet proof reliability. Having said that in the two years I have had mine it has been washed twice and apart from regular servicing and the odd upgrade I have found that the basic engineering is pretty sound provided you dont mind getting your hands dirty now and again.

Radicals etc are faster but like everything in life there is always something out there that is. Residuals are pretty good and I would recommend the K series superlight as a starting point as they are reasonably priced and have LSD's and decent brakes as a starting point, they also aren't running an engine in a crazy state of tune so they are far more robust than the 200HP K's. A std superlight around somewhere like Cadwell is easily capable of keeping a GT3 honest and you will have a hoot in the process. On the road there is not much that will stay with them and only visibility prevents you from running rings around superbikes.

Everyone should try one at least once, if you are unsure then try an experience day (http://www.caterham.co.uk/assets/html/experience.html), they are a great introduction.

HTH

Senninha

14-09-2009, 06:52 PM

So Donnac,

What will you buy after the NSX ... You're going to need something to fill the space.

Hope its the right decision for you, and someone has bought a really nice NSX. Hope the new owner stays in touch, and you keep us informed about your new toy.

Regards, Paul

donnac

14-09-2009, 07:34 PM

Don't know right now would be the answer but the only other car out there that does it for me would be a Lambo Diablo SV but may have to move house to get a bigger garage before I could buy one (a cheap one at that!!!). I got 4 laps around my local racing circuit last week in a charity event for Motor Neurone Disease and loved it.

I have taken a deposit on the car after 3 weeks so I am pleased. The car has been sold to a chap called Martin who will be on the site real soon. It has went to a good home. I had decided the day before Martin came up to Scotland to buy it that if he was not going to buy it then I was on the verge of just keeping it. I had it fully inspected by an NSX technician at the local Honda dealer and he stated that although at 90,000 miles, it looked and drove like a new car which was a great compliment to the car and the quality of the NSX brand.

I have done this before with car ownership, i.e. spent around £6,000 on a car making it as good as I could, only to sell after 18 months, just when it is in showroom condition. It must be an illness or something for me to lose money but this time round I have really enjoyed the NSX experience.

A big thanks to everyone on this site for their help and input on selling the car and I will continue to be a member :)

I am sure I will buy something crazy as it is in my character and if the past cars are anything to go by then it will be fast and different.

The car should change hands this Friday but if anything goes wrong then I will keep her. The NSX has been a great experience :D

So Donnac,

What will you buy after the NSX ... You're going to need something to fill the space.

Hope its the right decision for you, and someone has bought a really nice NSX. Hope the new owner stays in touch, and you keep us informed about your new toy.

Regards, Paul

14-09-2009, 07:44 PM

I would think twice about a Diablo. One thing is a "holiday romance" with one, another one is dealing with an old italian car. I know someone who has both a Diablo SV and an LP640 and he has kept both as he still loves the Diablo. A fantastic looking car, but one that will drain your pockets if allowed.

dan the man

14-09-2009, 07:46 PM

Spoke on the phone today to the new (prospective) owner. Cars going to a good home and its so good to see. Good cars like this one need to be carried on to good owners. each owner gets the benefit of the last owner taking care of such a great car.

(well except me battering her around the ring but dont all women love that ? ) :P

Steve and Donna hope alls well. Car looks mint in the advertising pics and i hear its been kept super mint too. I do miss it and always hanker for a car since i dont own one now. But come November im outa here to Canada for a year. Following my dreams- the power of dreams in fact !

havoc

14-09-2009, 08:05 PM

http://www.jonrb.com/emoticons/wavey.gif
Hi guys!

Steve - was really nice to go see a car completely as-described - thank you for that. And I'll make sure to take good care of her...first stop will be one of Kaz's famous inspections and I'll take things from there.

Dan - cheers for the call, and cheers for the kind words also. Best of luck in Canada - I've heard a lot of good things about that country...well, except for the beer, that is! ;)

Roll on the weekend is all I can say right now...I'm trying very hard not to get TOO excited (http://www.jonrb.com/emoticons/woohoo.gif), even though my future steed is being referred to by my wife and friends as a bumblebee and a 'ballistic banana' already...
:rolleyes:

dan the man

14-09-2009, 08:07 PM

ahh that good old feeling of waiting to get the new car.. i miss that excitement!

When i got the NSX it took me 6 hours to go down to pick it up...

and 3 hours to get home... Go figure :)

WhyOne?

14-09-2009, 09:10 PM

http://www.jonrb.com/emoticons/wavey.gif
Hi guys!

Hey Martin!

Good man - I am really pleased that your determination (and patience) has paid off!

Look forward to seeing even more of you here - I have 'seen' you in action sorting out some pillocks on Pistonheads - I know you know your stuff!

donnac

14-09-2009, 10:02 PM

Hi Martin

Thanks for you kind comments and I am glad it has worked out well and it won't be long now. The car is in mint condition and I am sure it will look the part parked beside other well kept NSXs. Best of luck to Dan in Canada as you have to try these things when you are young and you might have to chnage your name since you are now exploring the world to IndiDANa Jones:D

My previous car was an Atom and previous to that an Evo FQ330 and a Ferrari 355 so I know some of the pain factor of the Italian classics. I realize that a Lambo is more cash and more pain in the pocket so I might just save up for another 9 months to provide a bottomless car fund for repairs etc. The NSX has been my best car yet and only a Lambo could surpass it in my opinion for the overall package (if we ignore costly repairs for a second). I am going to hire a Caterham for a day to see how I get on but having went through an empty bus shelter in an Atom in 2007 I might stay away from kit type cars for a wee while longer (it might be safer for everyone concerned). I have enjoyed the respect the NSX gets from all types of people.

I am like most people in that I have dreams and wishes for the future however I count myself lucky to have owned an NSX even for such a short time and I take each day as it comes and I plan to keep logging in to this site as I have enjoyed it immensely. I will possibly not replace the NSX until next April 2010. Until then Happy Honda driving to one and all :)

TheSebringOne

14-09-2009, 11:11 PM

Sorry that you have sold up Donnac and good luck in the future. If you do get a Lmabo in the future, I would love to see some pics.

Welcome Martin, finally at last you are now a owner of a great car.

DTM, nice to hear you are still around & good luck in Canada pal.

Driver Matt

15-09-2009, 01:21 PM

The next car must be the new McLaren, have just put my name down for one. Not sure its the true successor to the NSX but it does look the dogs what-its.

15-09-2009, 02:19 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC-PQca6FJU

No words needed.

dan the man

15-09-2009, 07:32 PM

weapon that !

markc

15-09-2009, 10:39 PM

The next car must be the new McLaren, have just put my name down for one. Not sure its the true successor to the NSX but it does look the dogs what-its.

As would I... except for a serious shortfall in the the cash required to do so :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC-PQca6FJU

No words needed.

Hmmm... nice car but personally I'd go for the the Z06 over the ZR1. I'd go for the Audi R8 (V8) and the latest Porsche 998 GT3 ahead of either 'vette, an Ascari KZ1 over all of those and a Porsche Carrera GT if a McLaren F1 was out out of reach... which, sadly, it most definitely is :(

As for the a Diablo, even in SV trim... you must be crazy! Oooooold tech, big, fat, heavy and badly built. JMHO of course. Good luck if you're really brave enough :)

Cheers

Mark

NSXGB

16-09-2009, 07:18 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC-PQca6FJU

No words needed.

Very skeptical of those results. You wouldn't think the Yank report was biased by any chance, would you? :rolleyes:

Driver Matt

16-09-2009, 05:22 PM

The McLaren MP4 12c is going to cost £150k.
Have sold a kidney for the deposit.

NoelWatson

16-09-2009, 06:40 PM

The McLaren MP4 12c is going to cost £150k.
Have sold a kidney for the deposit.

How much do they want for a deposit?

16-09-2009, 06:53 PM

Sequels are never as good as the original IMHO.

WhyOne?

16-09-2009, 07:47 PM

Sequels are never as good as the original IMHO.

Terminator 2

;)

16-09-2009, 07:52 PM

Terminator 2

;)

Predator

:)

WhyOne?

16-09-2009, 08:01 PM

Predator

:)

Aliens
:D

16-09-2009, 08:35 PM

Aliens
:D

Conan The Destroyer!

markc

16-09-2009, 09:50 PM

Conan The Destroyer!

The Godfather Part II :D

TheSebringOne

16-09-2009, 10:51 PM

The Matrix!

NSX 2000

17-09-2009, 07:56 AM

How much do they want for a deposit?

More to the point how do you put down a deposit when they don't even have any showrooms?

NoelWatson

17-09-2009, 10:24 AM

More to the point how do you put down a deposit when they don't even have any showrooms?

No idea, but are you tempted?

markc

17-09-2009, 12:12 PM

More to the point how do you put down a deposit when they don't even have any showrooms?

No idea, but are you tempted?

I bet they'll be some rules about accepting deposits. Expect to be contractually committed to complete the purchase. Similar to Jaguar with the XJ220... hopefully not with the same outcome.

Hey Noel, were pretty local to Woking, I wonder if we can just rock up one Saturday morning with a bag of £50's :)

Mark

NoelWatson

17-09-2009, 02:21 PM

Hey Noel, were pretty local to Woking, I wonder if we can just rock up one Saturday morning with a bag of £50's :)

Mark

It may have to be a group effort to raise funds!! I can see the price sliding north of 150k before launch

CrazyMixedUpKid

17-09-2009, 03:01 PM

I've always been partial to the Koenigsegg ... am I the only one?

NSX 2000

17-09-2009, 04:56 PM

No idea, but are you tempted?

Very tempted but £150K is a lot of money to spend on a car :(

TheSebringOne

18-09-2009, 10:47 PM

They are different and true bona fide hypercar, but they have not really caught on & remain exclusive, but alot of car experts who deal with very high end supercars, reckon they will depreciate the most in the future and prices may fall in the new Mac range or slightly above it. Never seen one, so can't comment on what they look like in the flesh.

Interestingly, they now own SAAB!

Ewan

19-09-2009, 08:33 AM

I got to the Nordschleife on Thursday afternoon and went straight out to watch the action at the Breidscheid/Ex-meulle complex by the bridge at Adenau. There was a disguised MP4-16c being driven round hard ... sounds amazing!

Other cars of note during the test session:
- Lexus LF-A (can't believe this is still being honed at the Ring - must be 3 years since they first started getting photographed!)... still covered with cladding and disguises.
- Merc SLS (with some disguise) - sounds very guttaral; less like a Spitfire than the SLR, more like a hardened AMG SL
- Maserati GranCabrio (with camo-paint job) and GranTurismo (undisguised) - both also sounded really good... certainly louder than expected!
- Various Astons (not the V12 Vantage), sounding rather fruity
- A couple of GT-Rs ... possibly V-Spec
- Several big 4x4s - Range Rover, X5/X6, Merc ML etc - scary how fast they were being thrown into the corners... all tyre squeal and brake dust

My wife said she felt sick watching the cars barrel down the hill to the lowest point of the Nordschleife and then back up the steep hill to the Ex-Muelle corner. During the public Touristenfahrten session later on, it was telling that nothing was going as fast - even a GT3RS!

19-09-2009, 09:18 AM

I would be nice to be able to buy a Honda HSC what are the odds!!!

I wonder if anyone makes an HSC kit...

NSA

19-09-2009, 08:38 PM

An R8 would be the only thing I could contemplate selling the NSX to buy. In my opinion it's a very similar propostion, just updated for NINETEEN! years of technological advancement.

Papalazarou

19-09-2009, 09:32 PM

An R8 would be the only thing I could contemplate selling the NSX to buy. In my opinion it's a very similar propostion, just updated for NINETEEN! years of technological advancement.

They've lost a fair wack in the last couple of years. Saw a couple on AT for low 50's.
A bit of drop when you consider they were 96k new.

Cheers,

James.

Ewan

19-09-2009, 09:54 PM

quite right, James - a properly specced R8 would have been north of 90k and now are advertised for typically upwards of high 50s/low 60s, 2 years later. I reckon you could get a decent, low mileage car for not a lot more than £50k... if you wait a few months.

But then most cars lose 40-60% of their value after 3 years... so maybe the R8 is just bottoming out. Personally, I'd wait until this time next year when the V10 has had a chance to take a bite out of V8 values, and then hope to pick something decent up for high £40ks. But by that time, it would be a 3 year old car...

IMHO, here's the puppy of a V8 R8 - http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/AUDI+R8/Ne-2-4-5-6-7-8-27-44-49-53-61-64-67-103-133-146-236,N-62-209-240-4294952241-4294966807/advert.action?R=200938342079766&distance=104&postcode=rg7+4aj&channel=CARS&make=AUDI&model=R8&min_pr=&max_pr=&max_mileage=&vehicleYearOfManufacture=2007&vehicleRegLetter=57

Currently nearly £67k from a franchised main dealer, 07 plate with 12k miles. I'd say that's a good £5k overpriced right now, even with the expensive options.

Ewan

markc

21-09-2009, 01:40 AM

They've lost a fair wack in the last couple of years. Saw a couple on AT for low 50's.
A bit of drop when you consider they were 96k new.

No worse than "similar" exotica though. The standard manual gearbox car that I'd be after was £77K new.

quite right, James - a properly specced R8 would have been north of 90k and now are advertised for typically upwards of high 50s/low 60s, 2 years later. I reckon you could get a decent, low mileage car for not a lot more than £50k... if you wait a few months...

To be fair they are properly spec'ed as standard, there just happens to be a long list of completely unnecessary options for the like of premiership footballers to indulge themselves in.

I've asked my local Audi stealer to let me know if and when they get a manual car with no sat nav (I hate those screens) in to sample.

Cheers

Mark

21-09-2009, 09:42 AM

Is anybody waiting for the HSC or whatever it would be called?

havoc

21-09-2009, 11:01 AM

Is anybody waiting for the HSC or whatever it would be called?
I don't think Methusalah reclaimed his deposit on one! ;)

Papalazarou

21-09-2009, 12:10 PM

Per usual, we're way off topic again...........What would I own after an NSX?

Possibly an R8 but not loving it. Perhaps a 996 turbo or an E92 M3. However, depreciation scares me so probably none of the above.

Perhaps the question should have been; what do you buy after an NSX that isn't £150K doesn't depreciate much and has a similar ownership appeal.

I guess the ownership appeal for me would be; excited at the prospect of driving it, a good forum, regular meets, not too expensive to run, rare, impressive to drive but not a widow maker.

Cheers,

James.

forumadmin

21-09-2009, 12:46 PM

I'm thinking Exige.

Quick and cheap to run on a track. Already made for the track, if getting a sports pack version.

Good clubs, enthusiastic owners that will use them.

Not expensive, in fact almost a straight swap with the NSX.

markc

21-09-2009, 11:35 PM

I'm thinking Exige.

Maybe if your you want need a track oriented car but overall it feels like a backward step to me.

Of course it depends what you're needs are but I'm pretty much in agreement with Papa, R8, GT3 rather than 996 Turbo or maybe E92 M3.

Mark

Papalazarou

22-09-2009, 07:49 AM

I really tried to get my head around an Exige enough to buy one, but it just seemed too much of a compromise on too many fronts. I have a friend who uses his at Bedford regularly and if I lived close it might be a viable proposition.
However, I'd miss the V6, the build quality, the looks etc......Somewhere out there is the perfect road/track car.

Cheers,

James.

simonprelude

22-09-2009, 08:07 AM

Somewhere out there is the perfect road/track car.

I don't think it exists, you can either have a road car that is ok on track or a track car that is ok on the road :(

Well unless you have adjustable components and are technically minded enough to adjust everything before and after track. Even adjustable suspension isn't as compliant as the OEM setup on the road.

havoc

22-09-2009, 11:46 AM

I don't think it exists, you can either have a road car that is ok on track or a track car that is ok on the road :(

Well unless you have adjustable components and are technically minded enough to adjust everything before and after track. Even adjustable suspension isn't as compliant as the OEM setup on the road.

I agree with this.

The best OE compromise I've found is my DC2 ITR, which is practical and comfy enough to use on-road, but (just) hardcore enough to be good around a circuit. But it's exactly that - a compromise - it's noisy and a little bumpy on-road, without much kit, and on-track it could do with shedding another 100kg and being a little stiffer. But with my first ITR, I found that ~7 track days meant it felt really rather 'worn' (suspension and transmission especially) after <80k miles.

So I will not now use a road-car for regular track-use - it just chews up road-biased components. The odd track-day or trip to the 'ring won't be the end of the world, but regular (>3 or 4x per year) use WILL accelerate wear...

markc

23-09-2009, 03:38 AM

I don't think it exists, you can either have a road car that is ok on track or a track car that is ok on the road :(

Indeed... but if you want to do the occassional track day in your high performance road car to a) experience the full performance envelope of your car, b) learn how your car responds in extemes, and c) experience the world best race circuits from the drivers seat.

I agree with this.

The best OE compromise I've found is my DC2 ITR, which is practical and comfy enough to use on-road, but (just) hardcore enough to be good around a circuit. But it's exactly that - a compromise - it's noisy and a little bumpy on-road, without much kit, and on-track it could do with shedding another 100kg and being a little stiffer. But with my first ITR, I found that ~7 track days meant it felt really rather 'worn' (suspension and transmission especially) after <80k miles.

So I will not now use a road-car for regular track-use - it just chews up road-biased components. The odd track-day or trip to the 'ring won't be the end of the world, but regular (>3 or 4x per year) use WILL accelerate wear...

With all due respect to the ITR (DC2 or DC5), it's a step or two below the Elise/Exige let alone the NSX.

If you want a properly fast road car that's competent on track days, there are certain cars that are made for the job. The Porsche Carrera GT3 is surely the stand out choice but Ferrari F360CS and F430 Scuderia, BMW M3CSL perhaps the top spec Subaru Imprezza (Spec C) and Mitsubishi Evo (FQ xxx) and latterly the Audi R8 are all good choices. Caterham, Ariel, Radical and Westfiled are all much better track day cars but are seriously compromised for road, let alone daily, use.

Cheers

Mark

NoelWatson

23-09-2009, 06:10 AM

Indeed... but if you want to do the occassional track day in your high performance road car to a) experience the full performance envelope of your car, b) learn how your car responds in extemes, and c) experience the world best race circuits from the drivers seat.

With all due respect to the ITR (DC2 or DC5), it's a step or two below the Elise/Exige let alone the NSX.

If you want a properly fast road car that's competent on track days, there are certain cars that are made for the job. The Porsche Carrera GT3 is surely the stand out choice but Ferrari F360CS and F430 Scuderia, BMW M3CSL perhaps the top spec Subaru Imprezza (Spec C) and Mitsubishi Evo (FQ xxx) and latterly the Audi R8 are all good choices. Caterham, Ariel, Radical and Westfiled are all much better track day cars but are seriously compromised for road, let alone daily, use.

Cheers

Mark

Mark,

I wonder if you were to use say the Audi R8 regularly on track days, how much it would cost you a year in maintenance

havoc

23-09-2009, 07:11 AM

With all due respect to the ITR (DC2 or DC5), it's a step or two below the Elise/Exige let alone the NSX.

If you want a properly fast road car that's competent on track days, there are certain cars that are made for the job. The Porsche Carrera GT3 is surely the stand out choice but Ferrari F360CS and F430 Scuderia, BMW M3CSL perhaps the top spec Subaru Imprezza (Spec C) and Mitsubishi Evo (FQ xxx) and latterly the Audi R8 are all good choices. Caterham, Ariel, Radical and Westfiled are all much better track day cars but are seriously compromised for road, let alone daily, use.

I've driven an Elise-R, an E46 M3 (and passengered in a CSL), and now the NSX.
- And IMHO the Elise/Exige are just that bit TOO compromised for a regular-use road car - not quite comfy/ergonomic enough, and until the 2008 Super-Touring spec they were hopeless at clearing a fogged windscreen.
- The M3 feels just that bit TOO heavy for regular track-use...doable, for sure, but you'll eat through brakes and tyres, and given my experience with the suspension on the ITR I've little doubt the M3 will suffer just as much.
- The NSX is fantastic, but from my (thus-far) limited experience I'm wondering if the slightly softer suspension than the ITR would compromise it for 'proper' track-use - I'd like the ITR to be stiffer on-track!
- As for the rest, the GT3 has unbelievably stiff suspension which you'd need a chiropractor for if you were to use day-to-day (it makes the M3 seem soft apparently, and the M3 makes the ITR seem comfortable!), and I'd suspect the same is true of the CS/Scuderia.

I've no doubt that all are quicker cars than the ITR, and by objective measures 'better', but subjectively each has its own compromises as regards road/track use, hence my comment. At the end of the day though, everyone will have their own thoughts on the ideal balance - I've known some people use Elise's every-day!

Papalazarou

23-09-2009, 08:08 AM

The mk1 GT3 I drove earlier in the year wasn't actually that bad comfort wise. It just didn't like badly surfaced bumpy roads. However, I imagine the leaden tail and the perception of an under damped front end take a bit orf getting used to. I remember getting back in the NSX and thinking I'd come home. On reflection they are just completely different cars with very different charateristics.

With regard to tracking Evos and Imprezzas, for me the car must be rear wheel drive.
I went out in an FQ320 the other day and although it's levels of grip and go are truly amazing, it felt like anyone could just hop in it and drive it fast.

Cheers,

James.

mutley

23-09-2009, 10:09 AM

I think when the time comes for a new car, I'll be hard pushed to find a replacement. I intend to keep my NSX until it dies, or becomes uneconomical to repair (and I hope that won't be for a long time, but cars don't last forever).

The only car that I have been almost tempted to trde in te NSX for was an Aston Martin DB7, that was a few years ago now, but I think that I may go down theAston route when the time comes.

First Choice DB9
Second choice Audi R8.

Unless someting else comes along, that wil be my choices

NSX 2000

23-09-2009, 12:42 PM

With regard to tracking Evos and Imprezzas, for me the car must be rear wheel drive.
Cheers,

James.

My last Imprezza had the adjustable diff switch, this allowed over 90% of the power to go to the rear wheels at all times so nearley a rear wheel drive.

NSX 2000

23-09-2009, 12:44 PM

NSX 2000

23-09-2009, 12:50 PM

I agree with this.

The best OE compromise I've found is my DC2 ITR, which is practical and comfy enough to use on-road, but (just) hardcore enough to be good around a circuit. But it's exactly that - a compromise - it's noisy and a little bumpy on-road, without much kit, and on-track it could do with shedding another 100kg and being a little stiffer. But with my first ITR, I found that ~7 track days meant it felt really rather 'worn' (suspension and transmission especially) after <80k miles.

So I will not now use a road-car for regular track-use - it just chews up road-biased components. The odd track-day or trip to the 'ring won't be the end of the world, but regular (>3 or 4x per year) use WILL accelerate wear...

Indeed... but if you want to do the occassional track day in your high performance road car to a) experience the full performance envelope of your car, b) learn how your car responds in extemes, and c) experience the world best race circuits from the drivers seat.

With all due respect to the ITR (DC2 or DC5), it's a step or two below the Elise/Exige let alone the NSX.

If you want a properly fast road car that's competent on track days, there are certain cars that are made for the job. The Porsche Carrera GT3 is surely the stand out choice but Ferrari F360CS and F430 Scuderia, BMW M3CSL perhaps the top spec Subaru Imprezza (Spec C) and Mitsubishi Evo (FQ xxx) and latterly the Audi R8 are all good choices. Caterham, Ariel, Radical and Westfiled are all much better track day cars but are seriously compromised for road, let alone daily, use.

Cheers

Mark

I would comment that your both right and wrong and will depend on the track and the conditions at the time.

Tight track in late autumn, say Angelsey, I'll take a Clio or Pug 205, but Spa in the Summer then the Porker or Ultima would be a better bet.

Just my opinion of course :D

Papalazarou

23-09-2009, 05:51 PM

My last Imprezza had the adjustable diff switch, this allowed over 90% of the power to go to the rear wheels at all times so nearley a rear wheel drive.

I didn't know that and to be honest don't know much about Scubies or Evos. I think they're great cars though. For me they're just not special enough. A bit like a CSL in some regards. Very capable but too close to the norm.

I did have a quick look at F-car prices and was surprised by how much they've fallen recently. 355's in the 20's and 360's in the 30's. just couldn't afford to run one.

When you look around it's tough to find anything that offers the same appeal as the NSX.

Might go and try a MK2 GT3 later this week. wasn't impressed with the MK1 I tried earlier in the year, but apparently the later car's better. I'm also thinking I didn't give the MK1 a chance, especially and probably unfairly using the NSX as a benchmark when they are in all fairness very different animals.

Cheers,

James.

Dragonlady

23-09-2009, 09:28 PM

Just my 2 pence worth, but has nobody mentioned the Noble M12 GTO.
I have driven one on a track day and upto now of all the cars I have put round a track this one stands apart from the rest!

Sharon

dan the man

23-09-2009, 11:05 PM

People look down on FWD cars like the Tegs...

But a DC2 is built for one thing. To be battered to within an inch of its life...I just love honda for making it like that.

Its all well and good having a GT3 or something but if u cant fully enjoy it as your talent wont allow then personally id rather be in a Teg right on its limit wringing its bloody neck. The NSX laps i did, although were good, i was always a bit edgy as if she snapped out at 90mph on whatever section. Whereas the Teg i was Right at home whatever she decided to do...and i love that feeling !

I know i should learn to get used to MR layout i suppose..... Or try FR more to see how it swings..

markc

24-09-2009, 02:19 AM

Just my 2 pence worth, but has nobody mentioned the Noble M12 GTO.
I have driven one on a track day and upto now of all the cars I have put round a track this one stands apart from the rest!

They have a good rep in the handling department but as a low volume specialist manufacturer you couldn't rely on their reliability for either road or track really. Similar to TVR's. There were 3 Noble M12's at the Silverstone track evening Kevin and I did in July and all 3 were slow. One span off towards the end of the session bringing out the red flag robbing us of our last 15mins :(

Its all well and good having a GT3 or something but if u cant fully enjoy it as your talent wont allow then personally id rather be in a Teg right on its limit wringing its bloody neck. The NSX laps i did, although were good, i was always a bit edgy as if she snapped out at 90mph on whatever section. Whereas the Teg i was Right at home whatever she decided to do...and i love that feeling !

That's FWD for you really. It provides friendly, safe handling and as you say you can really take liberties with them. The ITR along with various Renaults (Clio 182/197 Cup, Megane R26R) and Fords (Puma Racing, Focus RS) are the best of these. Very good, very fast but not really special.

A GT3 is most certainly special as is the F360/430 and so, to a lesser degree, are the M3, R8 and NSX.

In some ways the Clio V6 is a similar package to the NSX... hows that for a left field alternative?

Cheers

Mark

Papalazarou

24-09-2009, 08:14 AM

In some ways the Clio V6 is a similar package to the NSX... hows that for a left field alternative?

Cheers

Mark

I've driven a couple of V6 Clios and for the money they're a lot of fun. The early cars are a little slow but the 255 is great fun. The only thing that put me off buying one was the build quality and the standard Clio dash; it kind of ruines the illusion. Oh and those seats are pretty damn awful.

With regard to Integras, well a couple of us from the site were looking at one as a track car. I'm not really a fan of FWD, but performance /reliability wise, there's nothing close for the money. But I agree with Mark, not what I'd call special.

Cheers,

James.

havoc

24-09-2009, 12:20 PM

That's FWD for you really. It provides friendly, safe handling and as you say you can really take liberties with them. The ITR along with various Renaults (Clio 182/197 Cup, Megane R26R) and Fords (Puma Racing, Focus RS) are the best of these. Very good, very fast but not really special.

Yes and no. Compared to the other cars you were mentioning - £70k+ cars when new - no, probably not that special.

BUT...I've driven most of the current crop of quick FWD cars and a fair chunk of "affordable" quick rwd and 4wd. And in terms of involvement, feel, poise, sound and general "I want this car", the ITR would rank pretty-much equal with any of the following in my mind:-
- E46 M3
- Elise 111R
- 986 Boxster / -S (not driven the 987 or Cayman)

...and ahead of:-
- S2000
- 350Z
- Z4 (original)
- ANY other FWD car (caveat: not driven Focus RS or Megane R26.R yet, or the FD2 CTR)

Why?
- Because it has such a sublime balance between grip/poise/ride quality (sound familiar?) - only the Boxster out of the top-3 actually beats it in those stakes, and then only on the stock wheels (the other two are notably stiffer/crashier).
- Because ALL of the controls are beautifully weighted, engineered, and offer very good feedback (E46 M3 feedback and engineering no better, and the DBW throttle isn't as precise/delicate. Boxster very nice but only actually quicker if you get the £40k+ -S)
- Because the driving position is near-perfect
- Because the engine, while a little thin in the mid-range, is a joy to use, and only rarely do you miss the pace of the quicker cars (you can't use it that often in the UK anyway - I could lose my license in the ITR on pretty-nearly any road you nominate. I picked the NSX over the M3 and C6 Corvette for the same reasons - didn't need the extra straight-line 'kick')

As for FWD in general, there's a lot of dull/uninvolving dross out there at the moment - feedback and involvement seems to be gradually being engineered OUT of cars for some reason. And overall I do (100%) prefer rwd to fwd, simply because of the options it gives you and the more natural 'gait' through corners. The DC2 is quite a special little creation, though...

NoelWatson

24-09-2009, 02:50 PM

I've driven a couple of V6 Clios and for the money they're a lot of fun. The early cars are a little slow but the 255 is great fun. The only thing that put me off buying one was the build quality and the standard Clio dash; it kind of ruines the illusion. Oh and those seats are pretty damn awful.

With regard to Integras, well a couple of us from the site were looking at one as a track car. I'm not really a fan of FWD, but performance /reliability wise, there's nothing close for the money. But I agree with Mark, not what I'd call special.

Cheers,

James.

I think the 255 would be way slower than the NSX - they were getting around 20mph less than ours at VMax.

simonprelude

24-09-2009, 05:59 PM

ITR would rank ahead of:-
- S2000

Can't agree with you there :(

Having owned a couple of each I have another S2000 now.

24-09-2009, 07:33 PM

I picked the NSX over the M3 and C6 Corvette for the same reasons - didn't need the extra straight-line 'kick')

Once you get yourself used to it and the extra kick will be needed. :)

Senninha

24-09-2009, 08:59 PM

If you culd do this in a GT£ then we'd all be lining up for one ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlWQy-gljhs

But until then I would take a DC2 anyday as like Dan you can drive this to the limit, get away a few naughty liberties, and play for low investment

Boomin33

25-09-2009, 01:46 PM

Think you have to win the lottery first... but what about a Mosler? Don't know much about performance vs. handling... but thought it looked the business ? hmm. can't figure out why...

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs195.snc1/6571_136647875578_777425578_3263338_6741779_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3263339&id=777425578)

simonprelude

25-09-2009, 01:55 PM

Still tempted by this at the moment for the same ££'s that my NSX went for.

http://images.pistonheads.com/aimg/1221/1221298-1.jpg

NSXGB

25-09-2009, 02:27 PM

Still tempted by this at the moment for the same ££'s that my NSX went for.

http://images.pistonheads.com/aimg/1221/1221298-1.jpg

The front looks like a squashed MK2 MR2. :eek:

WhyOne?

25-09-2009, 03:07 PM

Still tempted by this at the moment for the same ££'s that my NSX went for.

http://images.pistonheads.com/aimg/1221/1221298-1.jpg

Spectre R42???

Not sure it will be any better built than the Farbio.

simonprelude

25-09-2009, 03:33 PM

Spectre R42???

Not sure it will be any better built than the Farbio.

Buying and servicing one might be easier, that's what put me off Farbio.

Senninha

25-09-2009, 03:37 PM

Still tempted by this at the moment for the same ££'s that my NSX went for.

http://images.pistonheads.com/aimg/1221/1221298-1.jpg

Looks like an ugly bodykit stuck on to an almost as ugly 220 Jag ... so no surprise this wouldn't be on my list :no:

dan the man

01-10-2009, 07:50 AM

it does remind me of the Jag

mutley

01-10-2009, 06:00 PM

it does remind me of the Jag

Yeah same here, but i like the looks of the jag XJ220

TheSebringOne

01-10-2009, 10:33 PM

Sorry, I know these cars are rare, but not my cup of tea. :dunno:

Simon, is there anything else thats might tickle your fancy?

01-10-2009, 10:47 PM

This is a real nice car:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/913858.htm

TheSebringOne

01-10-2009, 11:10 PM

Very rare & different, its got a great reputable engine in a quite hi-tech chassis, but not sure at £50K for a 96 reg, but then they are rare.
From a side shot angle, its got hints of the Elan. I do like the older styled De Tomaso, a bit Lambo-ish, but not sure what they are like
to drive or live with?

Driver Matt

02-10-2009, 07:28 AM

Anyone needing to refill the toy box should check out this the RM auction coming up at the end of October. My fave has to be lot 242. Something for a sunny day :)

http://www.rmauctions.com

simonprelude

02-10-2009, 07:54 AM

There was a French car about 2 years ago that I kicked myself for not buying, there were only about 30 made and only 1 in right hand drive, convertible hardtop and looked like a stylish version of the SLK. The only thing that springs to mind was it either was made by Venturi or they had a hand in the styling. Any ideas??

dan the man

02-10-2009, 08:10 AM

Hmm i had a Guara as a Model when i 3as younger...I didnt know what it was. It was a christmas gift, so i took it back and got a 550... :

Maybe should of kept it now as dont mind it

simonprelude

02-10-2009, 08:50 AM

1993 Venturi Transcup 210 mmm.

havoc

02-10-2009, 11:37 AM

Anyone needing to refill the toy box should check out this the RM auction coming up at the end of October. My fave has to be lot 242. Something for a sunny day :)

http://www.rmauctions.com

Oh, I dunno. Lot 250 looks absolutely stunning (and have you seen the provenance?!?), and Lot 247 would be clamouring for my money too...

simonprelude

02-10-2009, 11:54 AM

There is nothing at that auction that remotely interests me regardless of price, am I a philistine ??

Sure there's a few cars there I would like to experience but nothing I'd actually want to own.

Senninha

02-10-2009, 08:06 PM

So reading through there is lots of suggestions for great and interesting cars here, some obvious, some not so.

However, I would be looking at this from a different POV. The NSX is a very complete package, ahead of its time etc etc. Its natural succesor, the R8 doesn't excite me and is going down in price quicker then the Titanic. Annual mileage of NSX < 5k

My daily is a 220CDI Cclass. Excellent all round car, can eat the miles (as proven on trip to Rome) and offers 600 miles between fill ups (some times;)) Annual mileage circa 30k

Now what would you choose if you wanted to combine the two?

Just some ideas I've considered include;

RS4 touring
635d
AMV8
S5 quattro
SL350
New E350CDi coupe

I rarely have a passenger as with a young family we take the CRV.

Thoughts?

regards, Paul

NoelWatson

02-10-2009, 09:27 PM

RS4 touring

Thoughts?

regards, Paul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaZExdTHHjY

8:10

so disappointing.

havoc

02-10-2009, 09:52 PM

Thoughts?

Why change?

If the NSX does everything you want from it, it's not going to depreciate much and comparative running costs should be sensible/low, so aside from being a capital-sink (i.e. you've got £25k tied-up in it), there's no reason not to keep it.

By comparison, any change would cost a LOT more:-
- a newer "weekend car" will depreciate a lot more unless you go for another 'unloved' older classic, which probably won't be as complete a package as the NSX (except maybe a good 993?!?). Or a comparable classic will cost a lot more to buy, to get something as good as the NSX.

- a combination car (performance saloon/coupe), at 30k miles per year, will depreciate like a STONE whatever you buy. A £30k RS4 will, in 2 years, be worth no more than £15k if you've put 50-60k miles on top of whatever it's got at the moment (look at leggy M3's for a comparison). And that's before the petrol costs (30k @ 45mpg vs 30mpg = 333 gallons extra, or £1,700), and the more expensive rubber, etc. etc.

So, ignoring petrol, insurance and servicing for the moment (which probably won't change much in aggregate), an NSX will cost ~£2-3k p.a. in depreciation and perhaps £1-2k p.a. in repairs. £4k a year vs the depreciation alone on anything else?!?

Or: Get a cheap hooligan or track-car to go alongside the NSX and the Merc. A £4k MX-5 or £5k ITR (or even a £2k E30 325i) will be a very different prospect to the NSX, but both are still very satisfying (the ITR is SUCH a grin-inducing machine on a B-road or on-track, glad I've still got mine alongside the NSX, if that gives you an idea...), and would be an alternative to the Merc on shorter-journeys where you didn't want to take the NSX.

Track-car will cost a little more (inc. a trailer budget £10k+ for a decent Caterfield, or £5k+ for a sorted 205 Mi16 or similar), but the Caterfields hardly depreciate and cost not a lot to run on-track, compared to something bigger/heavier. I'm sure you've done it, but if not, I can honestly say track-driving in something focused is even more involving/immersing than fast-road driving.

...just a couple of leftfield options to give you some alternative thrills/thoughts without ripping your wallet to shreds chasing something that can properly replace the NSX!

markc

02-10-2009, 09:56 PM

There is nothing at that auction that remotely interests me regardless of price, am I a philistine ??

Yes Simon you are :)

I find myself less and less attracted to new cars and increasingly interested in older, classic, machinery. I'd love something to participate the classic rally/tour scene in, Tour Britannia and Tour Auto etc. The Muira, SL300 or 2.4S (from that auction) would all be perfect :)

My daily is a 220CDI Cclass. Excellent all round car, can eat the miles (as proven on trip to Rome) and offers 600 miles between fill ups (some times;)) Annual mileage circa 30k

Now what would you choose if you wanted to combine the two?

Just some ideas I've considered include;

RS4 touring
635d
AMV8
S5 quattro
SL350
New E350CDi coupe

Thoughts?

Now you fess up to doing the Rome trip in the luxo barge rather than the NSX ;)

I can't get excited about any on your list I'm afraid. Shame on you for nominating not 1 but 2 diesels!

Here's the modern stuff that gets me going...

Alfa 8C Competizione
Audi R8 V8
Ascari KZ1
Ford Focus RS
Porsche Carrera GT3
BMW M3 (E92)
Citroen C6

Cheers

Mark

Senninha

02-10-2009, 10:57 PM

........I can't get excited about any on your list I'm afraid. Shame on you for nominating not 1 but 2 diesels!

Here's the modern stuff that gets me going...

Alfa 8C Competizione
Audi R8 V8
Ascari KZ1
Ford Focus RS
Porsche Carrera GT3
BMW M3 (E92)
Citroen C6

Cheers

Mark

Alfa 8C Competizione - Looks great but way too rich for a daily
Audi R8 V8 - still not working for me
Ascari KZ1 - no where near as usable as the NSX
Ford Focus RS - could be the answer, cheap as chips on a ticket
Porsche Carrera GT3 - would need to try one again as didn't like fornt end b4
BMW M3 (E92) - great for Tiff to show boat but lethal (IMO) unless you let all the computers drive it for you
Citroen C6 - I'm actually liking the C5 touring with 6spd 30tdi ....

...and I've ended on a diesel ;)

Seriously though, my mate has a 535, fully chipped and with aftermarket LSD and that is one quick car yet can still turn >40mpg. Wouldn't need the touring, hence the 635 thinking.

I just wish Merc had stuffed the 350CDI into the SL model.

8:10 .....so disappointing

But in the real world and not on a old airfield wouldn't you feel more confident transporter Mum and two littel ones with the reassurance of 4WD, bags of torque to move effortlessly through traffic and all without attracting atention form the BIB .....

regards, Paul

markc

02-10-2009, 11:19 PM

Seriously though, my mate has a 535, fully chipped and with aftermarket LSD and that is one quick car yet can still turn >40mpg. Wouldn't need the touring, hence the 635 thinking.

I just wish Merc had stuffed the 350CDI into the SL model.

All fair points regarding my list.

I just can't do diesels as performance cars though. Yes they're properly fast these days but the power delivery is horrible :( No throttle response to speak of, all the power in a narrow slug of about 2000rpm then nothing as it "fluffs out" at about 4,800rpm. Nasty!

I happily forego 40mpg for 20mpg and a lovely V8 rumble and take the 645i over the 635d :) Not that the 6xx appeals that much. I quite like the Z4M Coupe though... the magnificent S54 engine's last hurrah :D

Cheers

Mark

02-10-2009, 11:31 PM

Well I quite like the 535 and 635.

I actually tought about a 635 a while back.

NoelWatson

03-10-2009, 05:39 AM

havoc

03-10-2009, 07:16 AM

But in the real world and not on a old airfield wouldn't you feel more confident transporter Mum and two littel ones with the reassurance of 4WD, bags of torque to move effortlessly through traffic and all without attracting atention form the BIB .....

regards, Paul

The whole idea of a REALLY quick practical car just doesn't seem to work for me once you've got kids:-
- If you're with the kids you'll be driving at 2/10ths anyway, so anything more than (probably) a 320d is a waste, and certainly a nice 330i/530i would be ample (sticking with BM's as a yardstick, but you get the point)
- If you're not with the kids you're on your own or it's just two of you, so why not get a focused 2-seater which will look better, feel better, GO better and be more of a sense-of-occasion all-round?!?

Performance diesels - agree with above - the engine, IMHO, is a key part of a performance car. Not the power (my ITR has less than the newest 'quick' diesels), but the sound and the delivery...

Great for mile-munching in comfort and ease, not so good for a Sunday morning blat to clear the cobwebs...

NoelWatson

03-10-2009, 07:30 AM

The whole idea of a REALLY quick practical car just doesn't seem to work for me once you've got kids:-
- If you're with the kids you'll be driving at 2/10ths anyway, so anything more than (probably) a 320d is a waste, and certainly a nice 330i/530i would be ample (sticking with BM's as a yardstick, but you get the point)
- If you're not with the kids you're on your own or it's just two of you, so why not get a focused 2-seater which will look better, feel better, GO better and be more of a sense-of-occasion all-round?!?

Performance diesels - agree with above - the engine, IMHO, is a key part of a performance car. Not the power (my ITR has less than the newest 'quick' diesels), but the sound and the delivery...

Great for mile-munching in comfort and ease, not so good for a Sunday morning blat to clear the cobwebs...

So Paul, If you remind us, other Paul and I will bring our 330i/d to the next meet, and you can have a spin in each

Ewan

03-10-2009, 08:48 AM

Yes Simon you are :)

I find myself less and less attracted to new cars and increasingly interested in older, classic, machinery. I'd love something to participate the classic rally/tour scene in, Tour Britannia and Tour Auto etc. The Muira, SL300 or 2.4S would all be perfect :)

I'm starting to think like this too, Mark - it's getting to the point where there's little point having a "fast" car on the roads, since everything else is so quick these days. Imagine what it would have been like having a Muira or 512BB in the 70s - compared to the Vivas and Cortinas of the day, you'd be in a different league.

Driving the NSX on the Autobahn made me realise that all the modern day German diesels are, in real terms, as quick - as soon as the de-restriction sign comes out, they're all up to 120 mph+ and off into the sunset, a car length apart from each other.

I love the idea of a classic Alfa or something esoteric ... for a taste of the romantic notion, check out http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/holiday_type/driving/article5901817.ece -where you can hire classics to drive a predetermined route, with mechanics in a support van not far behind ...

"It wasn’t only the local carabinieri. When I parked the Giulietta outside the only bar in Ville di Corsano — a pretty village on the road to Siena, surrounded by vineyards — a gaggle of locals came out to stroke and admire it.

At the Trattoria Moscadella, in Castelmuzio, a little later in the evening, I looked up from a plate of figs and pecorino cheese to see a black-and-white photo of a Giulietta hanging on the wall opposite me. When the owner realised I was the driver of the real one outside, he waived the bill. At times it felt as if I were carrying a letter of introduction from Silvio Berlusconi."
Back to modern day; if the need to combine a sensible car and a fast/fun car came up, you'd do well to look at the Jag XFR.

NoelWatson

03-10-2009, 10:49 AM

Driving the NSX on the Autobahn made me realise that all the modern day German diesels are, in real terms, as quick .

The chipped 335d was quicker than ours at VMax, just about on a par with new shape M3.

havoc

03-10-2009, 03:55 PM

The chipped 335d was quicker than ours at VMax, just about on a par with new shape M3.

For God's sakes don't admit that on PH! ;)

Oh - re: the Giulietta in Italy - top man! I failed to inherit the "mechanical ability" gene from my father, so I could never own a proper classic without the risk that it'd bankrupt me or fail to start so frequently that I turn into Basil Fawlty and beat it to death with a branch...

TheSebringOne

03-10-2009, 07:53 PM

Ditto Simon, theres nothing that excites me to drive any of those cars on the RM auction. I love the idea of a true classic car, but may be not that vintage? Interesting that our beloved cars are now crossing into the modern classic stream, especially the early 90s models as per all the classic mags suggest. I agree with the point that all modern machinery are churning serious BHP or torque, but whats missing is that " sense of occasion & feeling " of getting behind the wheel of something special thats not neccessary has a very high top speed or 0-60 times of 3 to 4.5 seconds.

Simon, the Venturi is a interesting & rare car that I think VBH drove against your beloved old car in a old TG or 5th gear?

My sense of occasion would be a Muira!

03-10-2009, 08:52 PM

IMHO the Pegaso Z102 is the one if one has the £.

Senninha

03-10-2009, 09:47 PM

I think you may be missing the point ... I agree that if I'm carrying family/kids then I'm in cruise mode, however this is usually in the CRV. I do circa 35k miles pa, most of which is solo and only 5k is in the NSX.

So what I'm trying to find is a car that can give me that turn of speed for the interesting drives, but at the same time be able to turn itself to the mundane daily mileage without complaint.

Saw a A5 tonight in Matt Black ... looked nice a purposful.

regards, Paul

The whole idea of a REALLY quick practical car just doesn't seem to work for me once you've got kids:-
- If you're with the kids you'll be driving at 2/10ths anyway, so anything more than (probably) a 320d is a waste, ..............Great for mile-munching in comfort and ease, not so good for a Sunday morning blat to clear the cobwebs...

NSX 2000

03-10-2009, 09:57 PM

The whole idea of a REALLY quick practical car just doesn't seem to work for me once you've got kids:-
- If you're with the kids you'll be driving at 2/10ths anyway, so anything more than (probably) a 320d is a waste, and certainly a nice 330i/530i would be ample (sticking with BM's as a yardstick, but you get the point)

Sorry Havoc but have to seriously disagree with the above. I would like to think I'm a safe driver and drive with in the capabilities of the vehicle that I’m driving, and I would never put the risk of my kids and wife and for that matter anybody travelling with me. For this reason I was more than happy to take my 11 month old and 8 month pregnant wife around the Nurburgring in her Golf GTI to show what it could do. If you have a smooth driving style you can still drive fast without upsetting your passengers.

markc

03-10-2009, 09:59 PM

The chipped 335d was quicker than ours at VMax, just about on a par with new shape M3.

Even so I'd much rather own the NSX, M3, either E46 or E92, or a even a petrol 330i and go 20mph slower but enjoy the silky smooth free revving straight 6. Diesel power is fine in lorrys, buses, trains and cross channel ferries or indeed rep-mobiles if you must but not sports cars.

Oh - re: the Giulietta in Italy - top man! I failed to inherit the "mechanical ability" gene from my father, so I could never own a proper classic without the risk that it'd bankrupt me or fail to start so frequently that I turn into Basil Fawlty and beat it to death with a branch...

I'm lucky enough to be able to borrow a 1964 Giulia Spider on occasion from my Dad. It's slow and uncomfortable by modern standards but is still lovely to tool around in. In fact I might take it down to Goodwood tomorrow if the weather looks nice in the morning :)

Cheers

Mark

JQD84983

04-10-2009, 06:42 AM

. Diesel power is fine in lorrys, buses, trains and cross channel ferries or indeed rep-mobiles if you must but not sports cars.

Its a bit of and old cliche this. Modern diesels are excellent to drive and the mid range torque blitzes many of the performance saloons unless the petrol equivalent is dropped a couple of cogs.

The lap record at Le Mans is now in the hands of a diesel is it not?

gumball

04-10-2009, 08:33 AM

Its a bit of and old cliche this. Modern diesels are excellent to drive and the mid range torque blitzes many of the performance saloons unless the petrol equivalent is dropped a couple of cogs.

The lap record at Le Mans is now in the hands of a diesel is it not?

Although I hate the LeMans diesels, they are there for the job of going fast.
But a sports car also has to make it enjoyable, without a nice engine sound it is not as enjoyable.

markc

04-10-2009, 09:58 AM

Its a bit of and old cliche this. Modern diesels are excellent to drive and the mid range torque blitzes many of the performance saloons unless the petrol equivalent is dropped a couple of cogs.

So you're saying it's not an old cliche then.

Gobs of mid range (engine) torque that negate the need to change down a gear is what people uninterested in driving like about a car.

You have to remember as well that it's torque reaching the ROAD that provides acceleration. Modern oil burners carry massively tall gearing to help cruising quietness and economy but it kills top gear acceleration. This combined with the diesels inherent limited rev range makes them uninvolving to drive.

You often hear diesel drivers (and journos) saying things like "I just left it in 4th across country and he couldn't keep up". Well maybe, maybe not but where's the fun and interaction in that?

lap record at Le Mans is now in the hands of a diesel is it not?

Yes but only because the Le Mans regulations favour a diesel engine. Expect the lap record to fall to a hybrid or hydrogen powered car as soon as the ACO (who set the regulations) decide they want one of those to win.

Cheers

Mark

NoelWatson

04-10-2009, 10:33 AM

Even so I'd much rather own the NSX, M3, either E46 or E92, or a even a petrol 330i and go 20mph slower but enjoy the silky smooth free revving straight 6.
Mark

Agreed. But the high flow cats can't come soon enough!!

JQD84983

04-10-2009, 02:04 PM

Gobs of mid range (engine) torque that negate the need to change down a gear is what people uninterested in driving like about a car.

You have to remember as well that it's torque reaching the ROAD that provides acceleration. Modern oil burners carry massively tall gearing to help cruising quietness and economy but it kills top gear acceleration. This combined with the diesels inherent limited rev range makes them uninvolving to drive.
Mark

But that is a far cry from saying these engines are only fit for Trucks and Tractors.

Agreed for all out performance in a Sports car the petrol engine will be more involving but an M3 or C63 AMG is more likely to be used as everyday transport and as such the diesels I think can stack up.

As for the Le Mans question you are right the rules allow the diesels a more level playing field but the increased torque means higher gearing, faster acceleration in the higher gears and therefore a faster lap on somewhere like Le Mans.

I wouldn't want an NSX diesel don't get me wrong.

markc

04-10-2009, 04:28 PM

But that is a far cry from saying these engines are only fit for Trucks and Tractors.

OK, you can have them for taxis ;)

for all out performance in a Sports car the petrol engine will be more involving but an M3 or C63 AMG is more likely to be used as everyday transport and as such the diesels I think can stack up.

There still aren't any full on sports cars available with diesel engines and IMHO involvement is the reason why. I can see why you'd choose a diesel in a fast saloon particularly if you do mega miles but you'd be doing if for tax and economy above any driving pleasure. If tax keeps going in favour of diesel there may well be a proper sports diesel but I'm not sure how well they'd sell. How many of us could honestly say they'd buy a diesel Ferrari?

for the Le Mans question you are right the rules allow the diesels a more level playing field but the increased torque means higher gearing, faster acceleration in the higher gears and therefore a faster lap on somewhere like Le Mans.

It's nothing to do with diesel, or torque, per see it's all about the air (inlet) restrictors and fuel tank capacity. The regs on these give the diesels the advantage. Also all the fast diesels we're talking about are turbo charged. A turbo petrol engine can really crank out the torque AND give you a decent rev range. Probably the best of both worlds but they never sound as good as a high revving NA engine.

I wouldn't want an NSX diesel don't get me wrong.[/QUOTE]

Why not though? If diesel engine is "better" surely that would be the way to go. Perhaps that last statement says it all for any car with sporting pretensions :)

Cheers

Mark

JQD84983

04-10-2009, 05:29 PM

Why not though? If diesel engine is "better" surely that would be the way to go. Perhaps that last statement says it all for any car with sporting pretensions :)

Cheers

Mark

Didn't say it was better just not worth the derision originally posted.

havoc

04-10-2009, 06:22 PM

Paul - fair points, my mistake. In which case, my questions are:-
- What sort of roads do you drive that 30k on? Mainly M-way, or varied?
- Do you NEED a practical car then, or just one that will munch-miles as well as entertain when needed?
- If there's 5% of the time when wife and sprog are in the car, could the CR-V substitute, or alternatively be 'upgraded' to surrogate for the Merc if the Merc gets replaced with a less-practical alternative? Maybe the less-practical alternative could be something that the wife would also like for those times she doesn't need the CR-V and you don't need to be entertained so could use the CR-V...may be some brownie-points there?!? ;o)

Sorry Havoc but have to seriously disagree with the above. I would like to think I'm a safe driver and drive with in the capabilities of the vehicle that I’m driving, and I would never put the risk of my kids and wife and for that matter anybody travelling with me. For this reason I was more than happy to take my 11 month old and 8 month pregnant wife around the Nurburgring in her Golf GTI to show what it could do. If you have a smooth driving style you can still drive fast without upsetting your passengers.

Each to their own.

Personally I'd never do that, as the risk at the N'ring ISN'T from un-smooth driving, and ISN'T from your own abilities, it's everybody else!!!
- That brand-new oil spill you didn't see on the entry to a corner?
- The biker who decides to overtake up your blind-side?
- The boy-racer who overcooks his hot-hatch right in front of you?
- The regular who's glued to your tail itching to get past and mis-judges his braking point?

I drive within my and my car's capabilities 99.9% of the time. Doesn't mean I'm not putting myself at more risk those times that I'm on my own simply through the extra speed I'm doing and the correspondingly lesser reaction-times to other idiots on the roads. My choice, but IMHO NOT my choice to impose that on my passengers, certainly not without their consent...

markc

04-10-2009, 06:28 PM

Didn't say it was better just not worth the derision originally posted.

Sorry if it came across a bit strong but you can't say it doesn't let everyone know how much I dislike them (diesels) :)

Cheers

Mark

JQD84983

04-10-2009, 06:43 PM

Sorry if it came across a bit strong but you can't say it doesn't let everyone know how much I dislike them :)

No problem. Wasn't sure if you were frightened by a clattery engine when young? :)

Hagasan

04-10-2009, 06:50 PM

"I drive within my and my car's capabilities 99.9% of the time."

Mate, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever hear anyone say.........

havoc

04-10-2009, 07:39 PM

"I drive within my and my car's capabilities 99.9% of the time."

Mate, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever hear anyone say.........

Why? I've lost control of cars I've been driving maybe 6 times in my life, and not one of them has resulted in an accident.

If I am determining 100% what the car's attitude is, then the car is in control. If I KNOW that I can keep that car shiny-side-up if things do go pear-shaped, then I am within MY capabilities...

reg

04-10-2009, 10:40 PM

The question of control is fairly subjective. When I was buried in the back of a car in a Mini many moons ago I swore blind that there was a slippy patch on the road, in reality i was outside my window:laugh:

Honestly I was a passenger more than once in my NSX and its a fairly regular thing in the Caterham. I am not sure why this seems to happen and I am not sure if it is just my feeling of what is going on rather than the reality. Anway my point is that I dont think I am 'in control' that much and most of what happens is down to chance.

I would never think I have a firm grip on driving. it would worry me.:D

Papalazarou

05-10-2009, 09:59 AM

NSX 2000

05-10-2009, 10:21 AM

Each to their own.

Personally I'd never do that, as the risk at the N'ring ISN'T from un-smooth driving, and ISN'T from your own abilities, it's everybody else!!!
- That brand-new oil spill you didn't see on the entry to a corner? This could happen on any road
- The biker who decides to overtake up your blind-side? In the south east this happens on regular bases due to over crowded roads
- The boy-racer who overcooks his hot-hatch right in front of you? Again here in the south east this happens far to often
- The regular who's glued to your tail itching to get past and mis-judges his braking point? one word M25!!!

And the biggest threat I have with my kids due to living in Kent is being side swipped by a left hand drive HGV. But dont even get me started on this:angry::angry: Even a 3 tonne 4x4 won't help when an unroad worthy, over weight lorry hits you because the over worked polish driver is falling asleep at the wheel!!!

simonprelude

05-10-2009, 10:49 AM

You guys are murdering this forum. The V-max (yawn) thing was bad enough. The pros and cons of diesels (arhhhh), and now we're into a thinly disguised pissing contest about driving prowess. Please deal with it!!!!!
Couldn't care less how much control you guys have or where you drive fast or who's with you.
Reg, this is not directly aimed at you, but please 'walk away from the anorak!' you're all a click away from a beer festival at a steam weekend.

As we discussed earlier James, I couldn't agree more.

Except 1 part, V-Max discussions are very different if you've been there and done it, you'd try anything to get an extra few mph out of the car :)

markc

05-10-2009, 10:58 AM

You guys are murdering this forum. The V-max (yawn) thing was bad enough. The pros and cons of diesels (arhhhh), and now we're into a thinly disguised pissing contest about driving prowess. Please deal with it!!!!!
Couldn't care less how much control you guys have or where you drive fast or who's with you.
Reg, this is not directly aimed at you, but please 'walk away from the anorak!' you're all a click away from a beer festival at a steam weekend.

Cheers but disapointed,

James.

Hee hee... it has meandered off topic somewhat hasn't it :)

Lets have an admin lock this one and we can start fresh "VMax", "I hate Diesel engines" and "Driving Prowess" treads in the Off Topic forum.

Cheers

Mark

Papalazarou

05-10-2009, 11:25 AM

Hee hee... it has meandered off topic somewhat hasn't it :)

Lets have an admin lock this one and we can start fresh "VMax", "I hate Diesel engines" and "Driving Prowess" treads in the Off Topic forum.

Cheers

Mark

Thanks Mark, I knew you'd understand.

Cheers,

James.

markc

05-10-2009, 11:33 AM

Err... how does one request a thread to be locked?

Admins, please do your thing :)

Cheers

Mark

05-10-2009, 01:51 PM

http://is1.okcupid.com/users/410/202/4102022445444324283/mt156454367.jpg

Papalazarou

10-10-2009, 07:05 PM

Ferris Bueller

10-10-2009, 09:03 PM

love the pussy Ary. Anyway, back on thread you V max w****rs.

Why is it that when I decide to sell my car, all the cranks come out of the woodwork. nutters texting me with what's your best offer 'mate'. Silly swaps or trade-ins (and some ok ones) And to top it all, someone has put in a ficticious advert on for a 98 3.2 for £12900 with the wrong telephone number, using pictures from an advert that went on last year.

Anyway enough of my ranting......for today. just thought I'd share that. again Ary, love the pussy. Looks like one of my ex's.

Cheers,

James.

Back on topic then....

So, I'll tell you what I bought.....an E36 M3 Evo. Selling the NSX was a matter of freeing up capital and making cash work at a time when the economic climate allows cash to work hard in the right places, or offer better value than the over inflated last few years would have. Therefore a sensible budget was a must, as was rear drive and a decent amount of poke and pedigree.

It has come up previously that the M3 Evo is a good comparison for a 3.2 NSX. Let me tell you, it's not. It's not as fast, composed, agile, comfortable, distinctive, prestigious, sonorous, cool or capable, Ayrton Senna hasn't been anywhere near it and it will probably cost me more to run in the time I have it (all of the above would apply to an E46 also, it's just more expensive and less wieldy). It's relatively good value though in terms of bang for buck.

Hopefully next year I'll get back in the game and perhaps find the space and cash for an Exige/Elise derivative with the Toyota VVTL donkey.

If I were trading my NSX for equal cash or more then my list would include:-

E46 CS (manual - no CS(L) SMG for me, thanks)
996 GT3 (no other 996 can offer the NSX a decent fight IMO)
360M (I've lusted after the prancing horse, rightly or wrongly since the age of 4. It has to happen at some point)
Cayman S (a little cold and calculated - feels cheap too)

None of the above are better than the NSX (and I've driven all of them) but they are all different and offer a subtly different colour of the automotive spectrum.

NSXesque

11-10-2009, 07:21 PM

Agree with a lot of the post above.
From the opposite perspective I recently sold a GTR and needed to find a cheaper car.
M3 SMG was tedious and had the most incredibly awful gearchange of any car Ive ever driven (I am including 20 year old transit vans). Ive never cut a test drive short before but this lasted about 4 minutes.
996 c2 was a reasonable car but too sterile and just felt a touch ordinary.
NSX-Offered an experience neither of the above could touch. Loved every moment of it. My gut feeling is that you cannot replace one with a similar priced/performance car adequately. They are just too good. Stunning and a revelation to drive.
The C2 is probably of similar quality but just doesnt have the magic. Intangible but definitely real.

forumadmin

11-10-2009, 08:06 PM

I haven't been paying attention to this thread at all, but there is a feeling that it has gone off topic or too long whatever.

So it's now Off Topic. There, you can all say what you like. After all this was never a discussion about NSXs, rather other cars that you could buy instead.

My vote is still Exige.:) Though the more I think about it, cars are a complete waste of money. There is no one car for the road and the track, and by road I mean something you can take on holiday around Europe.

So what will I most likely buy after the NSX? A trailer for my bike, so I can spend three/four days cycling down to the south of France next summer.:laugh:

Papalazarou

30-10-2009, 12:59 PM

I was looking through the PH classified last night and there was very little available that ticked most or all the boxes.
I was seriously considering a Cayman, but the depreciation's a real problem for me and you can only get the better spec in the later cars and they're all around £40K.

Anyway,

here's what I found;

MK1 GT3's £34-44K
MK2 GT3's £37-46K
M3 CSL £23-34K
911 996 turbo £28-48K

I consider these to be pretty similar in build quality/function/lower depreciation ect... What did I miss?

Cheers,

James.

PeteM

30-10-2009, 03:35 PM

Senninha

30-10-2009, 06:02 PM

.......
I was seriously considering a Cayman, but the depreciation's a real problem for me and you can only get the better spec in the later cars and they're all around £40K..........

... What did I miss?

Cheers,

James.

How about this thinking?

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1302932.htm

Reads as though its had good keepers in the past so ideal for your cleaning OCD ;)

Then, if you've seen this months EVO, you go talk to Parr http://www.parr-uk.co.uk/porsche-performance/parr-performance-parts/cargraphic-parr-performance-parts.asp

and then you have yourself almost 500bhp of Gayman to play with ...

Just an idea.

My other thought would be something like this ...

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1219983.htm

regards, Paul

COngrats on the sale ....

forumadmin

30-10-2009, 06:21 PM

I think I know now. As I have to drive up the Alps with snowboards in winter, carry bikes around in the summer, and want to on long Euro trips, I am thinking Audi RS4.

I know it's not the track toy that I would normally go for, but for all round usage......

Senninha

30-10-2009, 06:31 PM

Or for a little extra leg and headroom (of more use to some of us ;)), what about an RS6 Avant?

Silver Surfer

31-10-2009, 01:09 AM

Papalazarou

31-10-2009, 10:09 AM

You're right Kevin,

this thread has a mind of it's own. you ask a question about equivalent cars and it turns into a 'what kind of Audi do I go skiing in' discussion!

Cheers,

James.

Boomin33

31-10-2009, 11:36 AM

I'd love to be cruizin around in an audi again one day. RS4, R8 etc.

had a modified Coupe back in 2000 and it was the nuts. Not the same ride as a Track car, but still brought plenty of smiles.

Papalazarou

31-10-2009, 01:07 PM

I'd love to be cruizin around in an audi again one day. RS4, R8 etc.

had a modified Coupe back in 2000 and it was the nuts. Not the same ride as a Track car, but still brought plenty of smiles.

you mean like this track day car?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnD9AmYcPXU

About 1 minute in.........

Cheers,

James.

markc

31-10-2009, 06:14 PM

MK1 GT3's £34-44K
MK2 GT3's £37-46K
M3 CSL £23-34K
911 996 turbo £28-48K

I consider these to be pretty similar in build quality/function/lower depreciation ect... What did I miss?

Cheers,

James.

Pretty good list James.

I'd have to have the CSL converted to manual (with a clutch pedal) as the SMG system is truly awful. I'd pass over the 996 Turbo for either of the GT3's.

That sort of money buys a used E92 M3 now so I'd add that to my list.

I agree......B5 RS4 ...only come as Avant form. ;)

SS

I'm fairly sure Kevin meant the B7 RS4 which would be high on my list as a daily driver if I faced regular snowy conditions.

Cheers

Mark