Crickey this hasn't been off the market long

[Dragonlady]

I am sure that this was only sold in the last month or so, and now it appears to be back on Pistonheads:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1156005.htm

[AR]

Looks quite nice and clean.

[ian dc5]

I have seen this car, it looked unblemished and totaly original when i has a nose around it. I saw it at silverstone, the colour is very unusual, its a pearlescent and looks stunning in the flesh.

[havoc]

The advert is written identically to the old one (from memory, it seems like it anyway), meaning:-

- It's the original chap - maybe the sale fell-through?
- It's a scammer?
- A 'trader' bought it, is trying not to be a trader (IYSWIM), and hasn't bothered changing the text...

[markc]

I saw it at silverstone, the colour is very unusual, its a pearlescent and looks stunning in the flesh.

So what colour is it?

Mark

[Dragonlady]

So what colour is it?

Mark

Looks like the same colour as ours Sebring Silver

[markc]

Looks like the same colour as ours Sebring Silver

The way the advert reads suggests not, I quote "Please note that I will be adding pictures over the weekend, but in the meantime this is a silver example!" Sounds like he might have used a library pic?

None of the Silver colours look particularly pearlesent and Ian(dc5) commented on the unusual colour. Could it be the Pearl White?

Mark

[ian dc5]

The way the advert reads suggests not, I quote "Please note that I will be adding pictures over the weekend, but in the meantime this is a silver example!" Sounds like he might have used a library pic?

None of the Silver colours look particularly pearlesent and Ian(dc5) commented on the unusual colour. Could it be the Pearl White?

Mark

Mark, it certainly didn't look silver to me, pearl white sounds about right - the person drining it was late 50's from my memory. Stunning colour, its just 10k above what i'm looking to pay.

[NSXGB]

Mark, it certainly didn't look silver to me, pearl white sounds about right - the person drining it was late 50's from my memory. Stunning colour, its just 10k above what i'm looking to pay.


Are you sure you are not getting this car mixed up with Nigel's Pearl white '05 plate - NDR 747? I thought there was only one (very beautiful) pearl white 02+ in the country, that being Nigel's??

[Senninha]

Are you sure you are not getting this car mixed up with Nigel's Pearl white '05 plate ...??

Shouldn't be as this is Sebring on an 04...Nigels is defo the only OEM finish as it was special order wihin the last 12 cars

regards, Paul

[TheQuietOne]

This is owned and advertised by Dylan, really nice guy who is a bike nut! This car was at Japfest last two years see pics from 09 in the forum. It is Sebring Silver, and he is probably late 30's the car you are thinking of is definately Nigel's and he is most likely late 50's too!

It looks to me like he either changed his mind temporarily or a buyer pulled out. The car is absolutely mint FWIW.

[Ferris Bueller]

Something slightly odd about that ad - just doesn't "feel" right.

And it's £5k+ overpriced IMO.

[NSX_Spain]

Tried to contact him a couple of times. never received a reply. It's either a scam or it could be sold already.

[Boomin33]

Something slightly odd about that ad - just doesn't "feel" right.

And it's £5k+ overpriced IMO.

Interesting comment.

So you are saying that if you were actually the lucky owner of, and were selling this - confirmed as mint - 2004 with 15K miles on the clock; that you would put it on pistonheads at £34,995 ?

IMO ... i doubt it ;)

[simonprelude]

Well there's an 05 for sale at the moment for not much more ??

[simonprelude]

Don't think it will be around for long.

[Boomin33]

Hmmm.. maybe I've been away too long, lost in my own little world.

I just personally thought an 04 w/15K for £40K sounded a good deal. Shame not a Targa, or it'd been an absolute steal ;)

[NSXGB]

Shame not a Targa, or it'd been an absolute steal ;)

Why, do you think a flimsy old Targa is worth more? :rolleyes::)

[Papalazarou]

A 2004 with 14K has to be worth £38K if properly maintained and in top condition.

I took a look at the GT3 market the other day and they have similar anomolies when it comes to pricing. £45K for mid mileage MK1's and mid 30's for mk2's with similar and sometimes less miles. With small volume cars there seems to be little structure.
I guess it's largely dependent on the particular car;

Take the GT3 market again;

Saleable cars in Black, red, silver sell quicker and command higher prices (leaving spec out of it).
Other colours still sell but are more mileage dependent. for example; a speed yellow 04 with 35K may be advertised for mid 30's whereas a similar car in black may be advertised at mid to high 30 to low 40's.

Identical cars but the perception is that black is more re-saleable which is probably true. This senario is also true of NSX's. There are very few black manual cars and they seem to command a better price (mileage and condition dependent).

So, a red 05 NSX with 39K miles (http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1259879.htm) should sell pretty well at £37K compared to say a lower mileage IOP or yellow at the same price. the hard fact being that colour matters, and as much as I like most NSX colours, the neutral ones (read safe) will always command better money often inspite of higher mileage.

Saying that, the red car on PH will probably not sell now!!

The biggest enemy of the NSX is availability. people have little choice of car whereas choosing something like a mainstream 911 is relatively easy, there are 1,361 911's for sale on Autotrader as of 5pm today. Little choice = inconsistent pricing = go buy a 911 because we know what it's worth.


Cheers,


James.

[NoelWatson]

So, a red 05 NSX with 39K miles (http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1259879.htm) should sell pretty well at £37K

If this is the case, this would suggest that NSXs have gone up in value over the last 2.5 years. Ivan sold a red 2004 with 24k miles for 38k in 2007 IIRC.

[Ferris Bueller]

Interesting comment.

So you are saying that if you were actually the lucky owner of, and were selling this - confirmed as mint - 2004 with 15K miles on the clock; that you would put it on pistonheads at £34,995 ?

IMO ... i doubt it ;)

I was the lucky owner of a mint 2004 LBB with <29k on it and advertised it at less than that. Go figure.

You'll note that my car isn't there as it sold (advertised at 10pm, sold at 10am) whereas this one is still there.

Again, go figure...........

[Senninha]

Its that color thing that James referred too ... LBBP is a strong color and IMO, you advertised too low for what was a very clean car!

regards, Paul

[Ferris Bueller]

A 2004 with 14K has to be worth £38K if properly maintained and in top condition.

Cheers,


James.

James,

I'm not so sure. That's very stiff money based on what I've seen over the last few years. I paid less than that for my 2004 car 3 years ago when it was a 15k miler. I got a good deal but not massively unrepresentative of the market.

The pool of people who really want an NSX is shrinking IMO (though I guess that some people will come back having strayed from the NSX fold). Values have to drop IMO, recovery economy or not.

FB

[Ferris Bueller]

Its that color thing that James referred too ... LBBP is a strong color and IMO, you advertised too low for what was a very clean car!

regards, Paul

I could have sold it several times at the price I did, which may suggest you're right. However, I don't think people are paying top dollar and I think I could have been waiting quite a while if I'd asked more.

[Papalazarou]

I started typing this reply about four hours ago, but then got side tracked and I've just come back to find a few more posts. You guys may be right about the value of the 05 car.

Perhaps it is a little over priced. However, NSX's are less effected by mileage than some of the more delicate marques.
Very few people want to touch a 100k 328, 348, 355 or 360. Early 996's can turn into ticking bombs when mileage gets high and this is perhaps relected in their current prices.

With regard, to Ferris's £29K car, well yes it was definately too cheap, but at the time things weren't really selling too well. The market has peaks and troughs and it's not always economically driven.

I was getting trade in quotes for mine for similar money last February with a car two years older with 20K more on the clock.

I still think my car's worth low 30's because most contemporary rivals are disposable and IMO inferior. What can you get for that that doesn't devalue like a stone? You can put miles on, is special and doesn't cost too much to service?


If this is the case, this would suggest that NSXs have gone up in value over the last 2.5 years. Ivan sold a red 2004 with 24k miles for 38k in 2007 IIRC.

it's only my opinion, but if you look at the number of cars for sale a couple of years ago, sometimes there were as many as 20 on the market. now we're lucky to see eight or nine. I think at the moment there are around six.
There are certainly few solid cars on the market these days, fewer low mileage examples and hardly any 3.2 cars. In fact most 3.2's that come up are facelift models.

Now the total scarecity of cars on the market must have a bearing on sale prices. especially when some people are looking for a quick sale and undervalue their cars and make the market appear ambiguous. This phenomenon might weaken prices I suppose.

I'm not sure whether NSX prices have increased recently, but other sectors of the car market certainly have. Certain cars will always increas at certain times, so why not the NSX? It has all the credentials as an investment and judging by the recent polularity of the forum this seems a pretty reasonable assumption.

I know this is a mess of ideas and I'd definately get an F for structure but it's late.

Cheers,



James.

[Ferris Bueller]

With regard, to Ferris's £29K car, well yes it was definately too cheap, but at the time things weren't really selling too well. The market has peaks and troughs and it's not always economically driven.

Cheers,

James.

Apologies, I left some room for interpretation in my post. My car had <29k miles on it. I advertised it at £34,5k.

IMO £35k is the absolute ceiling for NSX now and facelift cars start at £28-30k ish.

Depends on the day, the car and the two negotiators. At the end of the day anything is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Look around at other exotica now and you'll see 360, 996TT and the like spiralling downwards. This spiral has to encroach on NSX values - as I said earlier people who really want an NSX are becoming fewer and you don't buy one on a whim. The more fickle punters will always be drawn to the badges at similar or less money. We band of brothers can't underpin the entire NSX market between us, especially as we move on. There aren't many teenagers and 20-30 year olds who lust after the NSX coming through to take our places. Most people who are older than that will have the means to buy an NSX if they want one.

Resurgent economy or not, car values are not going to recover to the same extent that they've tumbled. If we do have a blip, as many are predicting, another drop may well follow.

[Boomin33]

With exception to the quick sales driven by either 'other investment' or unfortunate circumstances ; I beleive these NSX's are worth only as little as the seller is willing/perfectly happy to sell them for.

That's an individual decision that takes a number of circumstances into consideration. Ddin't know about FB's or other recent sales ( i.e lower by £5K than I would have thought prices)

... wanted to make a statement defending, with pride, what I consider the value of late models ( as thats the category I'm in ) Impossible if I accepted £34,995 for that mint 04!

Possibly a very righteous stance that could get mullered the day I actually put my car on the market, eh !! :violin:

[Ferris Bueller]

With exception to the quick sales driven by either 'other investment' or unfortunate circumstances ; I beleive these NSX's are worth only as little as the seller is willing/perfectly happy to sell them for.

That's an individual decision that takes a number of circumstances into consideration. Ddin't know about FB's or other recent sales ( i.e lower by £5K than I would have thought prices)

... wanted to make a statement defending, with pride, what I consider the value of late models ( as thats the category I'm in ) Impossible if I accepted £34,995 for that mint 04!

Possibly a very righteous stance that could get mullered the day I actually put my car on the market, eh !! :violin:

If we all theoretically agreed that we wouldn't sell for £XXk then we could artificially hold up the market, but we've never had all the cars and someone will always crack.

£35k is good money for that 04, trust me. I paid £36,5k for a 2004 car with 15k miles on it about THREE years ago!

[Boomin33]

Wow.. pretty cool.. sounds like you had a great find and awesome deal. I'd have paid £4K more than that in August 2007. (if it was a targa).
I should have shopped around, sounds like. I just walked into Chiswick, car matched the wifes handbag. looked like a fun car. deal.

all relative and a personal thing, end of the day.

Sounds like I'll be hanging on to my car for a long time, as well. I just wouldn't sell for the kind of prices being suggested here


....

[Papalazarou]

Apologies, I left some room for interpretation in my post. My car had <29k miles on it. I advertised it at £34,5k.

IMO £35k is the absolute ceiling for NSX now and facelift cars start at £28-30k ish.



Ok I have a vested interest in the stability of NSX prices, especially facelift cars, but I would disagree that £35K was the ceiling for these cars. There are some mint low mileage 55' cars around which have to be worth highish 30's or low 40's for the right car. Look at Nigels Pearl white car with red interior, or Pauls black facelift car.



Look around at other exotica now and you'll see 360, 996TT and the like spiralling downwards. This spiral has to encroach on NSX values

For me those cars have one thing in common; they're not particulaly special and there are loads of them. Certain models from different ranges are put on a pedistall and everything else fades into obscurity.

Consider the 993, still making much better money than it deserves because it's the 'last proper Porsche?' The 996 GT3, also still holding pretty firm. Even the Ferrari 328 is still fetching silly money probably thanks to Magnum driving around its predesessor.

The NSX has had some great publicity in the last few years and the events we have attended must help the standing of the marque.
I agree it's a limited market vehicle, but I'm still pretty optimistic about what they're worth.


Cheers,


James.

[Papalazarou]

Apologies, I left some room for interpretation in my post. My car had <29k miles on it. I advertised it at £34,5k.

IMO £35k is the absolute ceiling for NSX now and facelift cars start at £28-30k ish.



Ok I have a vested interest in the stability of NSX prices, especially facelift cars, but I would disagree that £35K was the ceiling for these cars. There are some mint low mileage 55' cars around which have to be worth highish 30's or low 40's for the right car. Look at Nigels Pearl white car with red interior, or Pauls black facelift car.



Look around at other exotica now and you'll see 360, 996TT and the like spiralling downwards. This spiral has to encroach on NSX values

For me those cars have one thing in common; they're not particulaly special and there are loads of them. Certain models from different ranges are put on a pedistall and everything else fades into obscurity.

Consider the 993, still making much better money than it deserves because it's the 'last proper Porsche?' The 996 GT3, also still holding pretty firm. Even the Ferrari 328 is still fetching silly money probably thanks to Magnum driving around its predesessor.

The NSX has had some great publicity in the last few years and the events we have attended must help the standing of the marque.
I agree it's a limited market vehicle, but I'm still pretty optimistic about what they're worth.


Cheers,


James.

[havoc]

I agree it's a limited market vehicle, but I'm still pretty optimistic about what they're worth.

I'd agree...to a point.

The NSX is a superb piece-of-kit, but it's got three problems in the marketplace:-
- badge
- (comparative lack of) power
- the bargains that can be picked up which are ex-Stuttgart, ex-Munich (M), or more local (e.g. ex-Leicestershire). A £20k M3 will easily keep pace with an NSX, a £20k Noble will show it the way home, and a £25k Cayman-S offers a very similar package but newer and with more modern looks and a more desirable (for many) badge. And then you've stuff like the 370Z and Z4M coming in from underneath...


IMHO it's the comparative rarity and the kudos that the car still carries (Senna's name, for one) that are keeping it at these prices - how much would a similar US car cost vs a UK car, even now the exchange-rates are against us? I can see a floor of ~£10-12k for tired leggy cars in need of TLC and £20k for mint, cherished 3.2's in future years...but don't ask my crystal ball how long before we get there.

[Papalazarou]

I'd agree...to a point.

The NSX is a superb piece-of-kit, but it's got three problems in the marketplace:-
- badge
- (comparative lack of) power
- the bargains that can be picked up which are ex-Stuttgart, ex-Munich (M), or more local (e.g. ex-Leicestershire). A £20k M3 will easily keep pace with an NSX, a £20k Noble will show it the way home, and a £25k Cayman-S offers a very similar package but newer and with more modern looks and a more desirable (for many) badge. And then you've stuff like the 370Z and Z4M coming in from underneath...


IMHO it's the comparative rarity and the kudos that the car still carries (Senna's name, for one) that are keeping it at these prices - how much would a similar US car cost vs a UK car, even now the exchange-rates are against us? I can see a floor of ~£10-12k for tired leggy cars in need of TLC and £20k for mint, cherished 3.2's in future years...but don't ask my crystal ball how long before we get there.


I've really got to disagree with practically every point. I agree that the badge is an issue for some, perhaps many?

However, not everyone cares about pace.
These days the cold reality of sports car ownership is getting outdragged by a chipped BMW diesel off the sliproad. People who care about cars buy the package, they are normally not driven by one single factor.

You mention Nobles in the equation, well they're not worth much second hand for a reason. But perhaps you're right maybe there is a certain degree of cynicism in modern buying habits, perhaps all people want are badly made cars which once were expensive, offering high performance when not being repaired.

I also don't see NSX owners fitting the Z4, 370Z demographic? They're worlds apart really.

I really can't see later cars falling to a 20K ceiling, in years to come, but I guess that depends on how far in the future you're looking. This thread surprises me in many ways. It seems that many of the posts are negative, verging on undermining of the cars we own. Don't be feeding me 'realistic' in future posts. If you don't want your cars to be worth anything, that's fine.

If we can't have a positive outlook and value the cars we own, how can we expect others to take the same approach.

Anyway, I'll be interested to see what the market does. If my car doesn't sell I'll reduce it to £20K and see if I can compete with the 95-96 cars currently for sale.


Cheers,


James.

P.s, always looking for a debate.

[TheSebringOne]

Values is a contentious subject! What people are willing to pay is more appropriate these days in this global credit crunch! As for the future, when theres recovery, then the seller will become stronger again. Since this recession is worst then the great one in the early 20th century, then things may take longer to recover. I don't want to sound like doom/gloom, but at least our cars have advantages compared to other marques, exclusivity, rarity, reliability, craftsmanship, Senna & F1 connection and when compared to say a 360 or 996TT etc, which were 105/110k or 85/90k new, then ours at 60/70k and its relative ratio value now & in the future, then I think things will not be all that bad value wise.

[blue5]

Hello all, I'm back.

I would like to comment on the value of NSX's in relation to other cars.

When I bought mine the rule of thumb was that an NSX was £10k less than a comparable 911. This was in 1997 so the 911 was in fact a 993.

Unusually the 993 has become an icon, there are plenty of followers, plenty of cars and perhaps more importantly plenty of aftermarket businesses specialising in the support and improvement of the marque, this has led to strong and stable prices even in these depressed timesThe 996 with the exception of the GT3 and perhaps the turbo/GT2 are relatively worthless with massive oversupply.

As a former very happy long term NSX owner who did in fact go over to the dark side and buy a GT3 albeit in (speed yellow so not so dark afterall) I can speak with some authority in saying that the 993 is just an old car which looks nice to those who like them but drives like an old car and the 996 feels like a saloon car with a sporty body and a nice flat 6 sound. I would consider neither car to be an alternative to an NSX.

Lets not forget an NSX is about exotic materials, technology and above all reliability.

What it lacks for a potential buyer (if we dicount the badge issue which i now believe to be a redundant notion) is aftermarket support. There are not enough cars to support an aftermarket industry so the buyer is stuck with either main dealers who at some time had a mechanic who went on the course, chaps who can fix a few bits if they fall off, a few foreign specialists, some of whom have shafted contributors here, but worst of all no one that i can name who have real experience and facilities to repair a damaged aluminium monocoque.

In other words there is a vulnerability to an NSX, hence the time honoured statement to prospective buyers, wait for a good one (i have paraphrased here).

Ferris has the nail hit on the head, he advertised at a price he considered to be right, was proved right and it sold whereas others have not (yes i was tempted).

If we take the figure of £35k as an example, that is a lot of money. Look around at what else £35k will buy, there are some fabulous cars around, and unless you are a dyed in the wool NSXer they are all "better" than the NSX because the NSX is now an "old car".

It has been mentioned that the pool of would be owners could be shrinking, perhaps due to some of my observations about the support and availability of other marques, perhaps its an age thing, ie the younger chaps want newer cars or perhaps the NSX is now bought as a weekend car so justifying or even sustaining high prices will no longer be possible.

I could cite examples like Aston Martins and Rollers from the 80's or even the top gear buy a supercar for under £10k to underline what happens to old high value premium brands.

So in summary, Ferris has proved a point regarding prices, could he have got more? perhaps but probably not a lot, and what of the other interested parties, I bet they bought something newer as it appears that similars nsx's are still available or perhaps they were timewasters and the only real buyer bought.

[havoc]

I've really got to disagree with practically every point. I agree that the badge is an issue for some, perhaps many?

I also don't see NSX owners fitting the Z4, 370Z demographic? They're worlds apart really.

Sorry James, but I've got to disagree, at least in the £20-25k bracket. I was after one last full-fat properly fun weekend car, and my shortlist was:-
- NSX (top-of-list as I've always liked Hondas)
- E46 M3 (a friend showed me what one could do around the 'ring)
- Corvette C5 / C6 (V8...V8...v8)
- Caterham (100% pure driving)
- Z4M
- 350Z
- Boxster / Cayman
(The 996 was considered before I realised the potential running-costs, and for the same reasons I didn't consider ANY other exotica...so if I'm typical then the future NSX owner won't necessarily be the same sort of person as a classic Ferrari/Porsche owner!)

The last 3 didn't get driven due to ubiquity or reviews showing an overly-stiff ride (Z4M), and of the others, the NSX felt the most special, but the M3 mainly lost-out due to bland looks and a slightly over-stiff ride...they really are very good to drive! The NSX is clearly the more special car and I've not stopped grinning yet, but I'm under no illusions about likely running costs...which WILL be a consideration for people working around my budget-level.


FWIW I think the best cars will always find homes with proper enthusiasts (and will rate a decent premium because of it), but I can see a growing gap between these and the ones that don't receive the TLC they require at the hands of someone more interested in bodykits and "zorsts" than in the fundamentals of keeping a 10+ y.o. car running properly.

[Senninha]

Hi Blue5,

Good to hear from you, trust you've been busy earning a dime or three!

All,

I've read several times about the 'last real Porsche' ... seeing as how they all look the same to me (apart from the GT3RS) ... what does this mean and why are some prepared to pay for this susposedly rare car (I saw 8 911's in 90 mins today against 1 NSX - and this was arranged!)

Maybe I should start a thread one the 'last real NSX' .... the manual 3.2 pop-up bodyshell. It has the classic lines of the original Senna car but with all the mechanical tweaks of the 02 cars. I think I'll start the premium at £5k .... :)

regards, Paul

[Ferris Bueller]

Ok I have a vested interest in the stability of NSX prices, especially facelift cars, but I would disagree that £35K was the ceiling for these cars. There are some mint low mileage 55' cars around which have to be worth highish 30's or low 40's for the right car. Look at Nigels Pearl white car with red interior, or Pauls black facelift car.




For me those cars have one thing in common; they're not particulaly special and there are loads of them. Certain models from different ranges are put on a pedistall and everything else fades into obscurity.

Consider the 993, still making much better money than it deserves because it's the 'last proper Porsche?' The 996 GT3, also still holding pretty firm. Even the Ferrari 328 is still fetching silly money probably thanks to Magnum driving around its predesessor.

The NSX has had some great publicity in the last few years and the events we have attended must help the standing of the marque.
I agree it's a limited market vehicle, but I'm still pretty optimistic about what they're worth.


Cheers,


James.

Let's be clear, there are few cars that have, and will, resist the dreaded "D" word as well as the NSX.

In terms of specialist/junior supercars. As you mention 993 and GT3 will be solid, as will RS, obviously. The best 328 and 355 will also firm up now.

All IMO.

The same things that stopped the NSX selling new still apply now, only more so as they're older. People buy Caymans instead of NSXs FFS.

At the end of the day, there aren't many people like us for whom the NSX is an object of desire. When the time comes, I have no idea what I'll replace it with. In fact, I've pretty much decided not to try and fill its boots, as I don't think it's possible.

[Ferris Bueller]

I'd agree...to a point.
The NSX is a superb piece-of-kit, but it's got three problems in the marketplace:-
- badge
- (comparative lack of) power
- the bargains that can be picked up which are ex-Stuttgart, ex-Munich (M), or more local (e.g. ex-Leicestershire). A £20k M3 will easily keep pace with an NSX, a £20k Noble will show it the way home, and a £25k Cayman-S offers a very similar package but newer and with more modern looks and a more desirable (for many) badge. And then you've stuff like the 370Z and Z4M coming in from underneath...


Many debatable points here. I'll pass on the £20k Noble, as most people do.
An E46 may have slightly better brakes but I'm struggling with the "easily keep pace" coment there. I've driven several, including SMG and CS variants and I wouldn't say the above is true. Ditto RS4, Cayman S, Z4M etc. A 360 is faster in a straightline, a 380bhp 355 is not (nor a 993 RS, 996C2/C4), but I know which is faster on any given stretch of road.

The NSX may have "only" 300 ish bhp (I think a few more) but they all pull in the same direction, are completely harnessed and you can wring the neck of every last one.

Of the several hundred cars I have driven the NSX has never been shamed by anything as a driving machine - only a specialist tool can shade it. As an overall package, almost 20 years on, it remains an impressive bit of kit. One can only imagine the meetings held in Modena and Stuttgart circa 1990. Today's supercars are only what they are because the NSX existed.

NSX's biggest problem is people's ignorance.

[Ferris Bueller]

The NSX is clearly the more special car and I've not stopped grinning yet, but I'm under no illusions about likely running costs...which WILL be a consideration for people working around my budget-level.


I'd bet you a pound to a pinch of **** that an NSX is cheaper to run than an E46 M3 by a good margin.

[Ferris Bueller]

Maybe I should start a thread one the 'last real NSX' .... the manual 3.2 pop-up bodyshell. It has the classic lines of the original Senna car but with all the mechanical tweaks of the 02 cars. I think I'll start the premium at £5k .... :)

regards, Paul

Not all the tweaks, but I get your point, and agree with it. Even if I prefer the looks of the post 02, in LBB at least.

[NoelWatson]

Many debatable points here. I'll pass on the £20k Noble, as most people do.
An E46 may have slightly better brakes but I'm struggling with the "easily keep pace" coment there. I've driven several, including SMG and CS variants and I wouldn't say the above is true. Ditto RS4, Cayman S, Z4M etc. A 360 is faster in a straightline, a 380bhp 355 is not (nor a 993 RS, 996C2/C4), but I know which is faster on any given stretch of road.

The NSX may have "only" 300 ish bhp (I think a few more) but they all pull in the same direction, are completely harnessed and you can wring the neck of every last one.

Of the several hundred cars I have driven the NSX has never been shamed by anything as a driving machine - only a specialist tool can shade it. As an overall package, almost 20 years on, it remains an impressive bit of kit. One can only imagine the meetings held in Modena and Stuttgart circa 1990. Today's supercars are only what they are because the NSX existed.

NSX's biggest problem is people's ignorance.



The NSX may have "only" 300 ish bhp (I think a few more) but they all pull in the same direction, are completely harnessed and you can wring the neck of every last one.

It has around 280-285 as standard



An E46 may have slightly better brakes but I'm struggling with the "easily keep pace" coment there. I've driven several, including SMG and CS variants and I wouldn't say the above is true. Ditto RS4, Cayman S, Z4M etc.


Based on my experience at VMax with a standard NSX, I would say all are faster than the NSX (in a straight line). With intake and exhaust (~300bhp), the NSX is quicker than the Cayman, but I've seen an SMG M3 do 165 at VMax (they can go off tune, but that one was owned by a rolling road operator and was giving ~335bhp at the fly). Maybe hi flow cats will give us a little bit more.....

[havoc]

I'd bet you a pound to a pinch of **** that an NSX is cheaper to run than an E46 M3 by a good margin.

For the same purchase-cost, I'm not so sure. A £25k M3 will probably still have BMW dealer-warranty, and unless there's any major engine-problems they shouldn't need big work until 100k. A £25k NSX will be 10y.o. and will need stuff looking at - Air-con 'board, caliper reconditioning, etc...

Worse, a £15k NSX or M3 WILL need a fair bit of TLC...

Also, any significant engine-work on either car will be megabucks...I'd put them pretty close in terms of bills, but would wager the younger car would (should) need less.

[Papalazarou]

For the same purchase-cost, I'm not so sure. A £25k M3 will probably still have BMW dealer-warranty, and unless there's any major engine-problems they shouldn't need big work until 100k. A £25k NSX will be 10y.o. and will need stuff looking at - Air-con 'board, caliper reconditioning, etc...

Worse, a £15k NSX or M3 WILL need a fair bit of TLC...

Also, any significant engine-work on either car will be megabucks...I'd put them pretty close in terms of bills, but would wager the younger car would (should) need less.


Martin,

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but I work closey with quite a few BMW franchises and have seen some of the bills for E46 M3's and they're not pretty. General servicing, brakes are expensive as are SMG issues on cars out of warranty, which most are (unless extended - which is unlikely since many have fallen under the £10K mark)How many £25K E46's are there now?.
However, you are right in the respect that both cars can be expensive to service if neglected. As we all know, just because there is a stamp in the service book, doesn't mean it's had the full service (and that's a HUK service, not a Kaz service).
Customers often delete certain parts of the schedule, because they feel it uneccesary, cannot afford it, or sometimes the dealer doesn't understand the requirements of the service.
An ASM was telling me the other day that 25% of their customers were refusing to have brake fluid changed every two years. People buy nice cars then skimp. Most of these cars were still in warranty.


I would doubt that the E46 engine is any more reliable than the NSX motor. There are guys driving NSX's in the states with up to 340K on them, still running the original engine.
Other cars that have been superchaged with well over 100k on them with no issues.

With regard to engine work however, the BM may be cheaper because of the glut of spare parts for them. An independent garage would probably manage a cheap engine swap, whereas obviuosly finding an NSX motor could be a problem.


Cheers,


James.

[TheSebringOne]

The guy who owns the gym I use, brought either a late old shape M3 or an early new shape one (think its the latter) but then found problems with excess engine wear and when the report came back, they found metallic bits in the oil! He got his money back & brought a late old shape XKR. He said BM treated him badly & he wouldn't buy one again!

[AR]

I heard of a few e46 m3 engines going bang and BMW footing the bill. One case in particular was a guy at a dyno day and a brand new BMW engine gave 347 at the fly.

The E46 BMW has that plumber, pub landlord feel about it, not my cup of tea.

The E30 now we are talking!

[Papalazarou]

I heard of a few e46 m3 engines going bang and BMW footing the bill. One case in particular was a guy at a dyno day and a brand new BMW engine gave 347 at the fly.

The E46 BMW has that plumber, pub landlord feel about it, not my cup of tea.

The E30 now we are talking!

The E46 does have a certain image. It lost a great deal of it's original appeal, to the point where it's unrecognisable from the original E30. I saw one the other day in black with black leather and just loved it's boxy simplicity. But then I grey up in the 80's where everything loked like that. I guess some of the recent changes are for the better but there's something special about the E30, even if it is LHD.

Cheers,


James.

[havoc]

James - fair points...and yes - the M3 I drove was a mate's 55-plate which was fully-loaded and immaculate...perhaps not that representative! And I had heard about VANOS bills as well...

E46 image - true...I wanted something special, and the E46 just doesn't look it...now if I'd had Wiesmann money, things could have been different!

(Love the E30's...if I ever emigrate and can't find a good LHD 'teg I'm getting an E30 instead!)

[Boomin33]

Maybe I'm wrong, but the trend I see, over and over again...

Those who currently own an NSX, value their possession and put a price on it that reflects this pride.
OK, so usually a premium has a bias towards their category, or others that are near. eeerr.. uh.... why wouldn't you? and Too Right.

Those who do not actually currently own an NSX seem to go to lengths to rant about how over priced they are.

eerrr... well, then don't buy the damn car !?
There are plently of people out there that £40K relatively means F-All to. If they came on here to research a car they were about to buy, on a relative whim... well you ain't helping your mates out much.. whom btw £35K - £40K might mean the world to.


*
If you didn't like DisneyLand, would you go there just to tell everyone how s h I tE ( or overpriced ) it is ?

No, you wouldn't would you... would be a pretty mean person to derive satisfaction from the upsetting the kids like that.



...

[Papalazarou]

James - fair points...and yes - the M3 I drove was a mate's 55-plate which was fully-loaded and immaculate...perhaps not that representative! And I had heard about VANOS bills as well...

E46 image - true...I wanted something special, and the E46 just doesn't look it...now if I'd had Wiesmann money, things could have been different!

(Love the E30's...if I ever emigrate and can't find a good LHD 'teg I'm getting an E30 instead!)

Yes, the Vanos thing's a pain, more so on the E36's apparently. Just had a look at E46 prices and I stand corrected, there are quite a few for around 25K, but I guess most are out of warranty by now.
I remember when the E46 first came out and I saw a new silver one with red leather in the car park. I wanted one pretty badly then, but as with a lot of new stuff, the appeal fades over time and you're left with something that's not so special. Probably why I've resisted selling the NSX for so long, bar a couple of glitches.

Just a thought about the other discussion. I think that people come to own cars for many reasons. Some see it as their destiny to own a particular marque, some change their car every six months and do not have an allegence to any particular model or brand and some, like I did stumble apon something special and have over four years of great motoring. My point is that there will always be a market for most exciting cars we see in the classified ads on PH. Someone will have a connection with them for whatever reason, despite and often inspite of what's new and what the media are telling us to drive. So yes, Potential NSX owners are buying Caymans, but Cayman owners are also buying NSX's.

Just my thought. Really enjoying this thread FFS!!!


Cheers,


James.

[markc]

The E30 now we are talking!

Nice old car but there's the thing, it's old and people are prepared to make allowances for that. At track days the standard E30 M3's are pretty slow. The engine sounds nasty as well, gruff and rattly... BUT it is a motorsport legend and people pay big money for them now.

Just when does a car make the jump from just another old model that can't cut it against the modern stuff to collectable modern classic? E30 M3's have made it, as have Audi quattro's (UR), Porsche 964/993, Ferrari 328 and a few others.

Judging by the age of those cars the NSX should be on the cusp but maybe the relative newness of the last cars is actually holding them back?


E46 image - true...I wanted something special, and the E46 just doesn't look it...

Personally I love the E46 M3. Properly quick, handy size, great soundtrack even has a few luxury's. I'll take a run out CS model (CSL steering rack and brakes) with a manual g'box in Imola Red :)

Cheers

Mark

[Ferris Bueller]

It has around 280-285 as standard



Seriously, someone needs to explain to me how at "280bhp" the NSX will sit behind a 355 on a balls out run, or an RS4 for that matter. And that's in a straight line.

In my experience none of the cars above will cover ground on real roads as fast an NSX. Nor will a Sagaris, or a 440bhp S/C 350Z, nor a 360 etc etc. IME you need something like an Exige S to shade it.

[simonprelude]

I absolutely loved the NSX and still do even as a non owner, the thing that worries me at the moment is the sliding scale of other marks and this makes me wonder how long the NSX values really can hang on.

I can appreciate this is now completely off topic but my I wouldn't put any money on the previous predictions I've made about future NSX values :(

Just look at F355 / 360 prices for instance.

[NoelWatson]

Seriously, someone needs to explain to me how at "280bhp" the NSX will sit behind a 355 on a balls out run, or an RS4 for that matter. And that's in a straight line.


355: I wonder if they really are 375bhp, especially the cat equipped ones. Furthermore, unlike the NSX, I wonder if they keep their power with age
That said, they get near 170 at VMax

http://www.vmax15000bhp.com/

RS4: They do 170 all day when in good health, but are prone to coking issues - the R8 only did 162 at VMax.

[markc]

Maybe I'm wrong, but the trend I see, over and over again...

Those who currently own an NSX, value their possession and put a price on it that reflects this pride.
OK, so usually a premium has a bias towards their category, or others that are near. eeerr.. uh.... why wouldn't you? and Too Right.

Those who do not actually currently own an NSX seem to go to lengths to rant about how over priced they are.

eerrr... well, then don't buy the damn car !?
There are plently of people out there that £40K relatively means F-All to. If they came on here to research a car they were about to buy, on a relative whim... well you ain't helping your mates out much.. whom btw £35K - £40K might mean the world to.

*
If you didn't like DisneyLand, would you go there just to tell everyone how s h I tE ( or overpriced ) it is ?

No, you wouldn't would you... would be a pretty mean person to derive satisfaction from the upsetting the kids like that.

...

I don't think you're wrong Rob. Prospective owners turn up here all the time and attempt to drag down prices for their own ends. Oddly, some of us actually join in and help beat ourselves up!

A strong owners club supports their chosen machine with help and advice for existing owners AND helps prospective owners select a car to fit their budget.

It may be that we need stronger specialist (maintenance) support before we can compete with the likes of other niche models. Perhaps Kaz's presence is the catalyst that will help the NSX find it's correct value in the UK and indeed help newbies find the cars appropriate to their budget ;)

Cheers

Mark

[Ferris Bueller]

Yes, the Vanos thing's a pain, more so on the E36's apparently.


I have one of these. Fingers crossed!

[Ferris Bueller]

Personally I love the E46 M3. Properly quick, handy size, great soundtrack even has a few luxury's. I'll take a run out CS model (CSL steering rack and brakes) with a manual g'box in Imola Red :)

Cheers

Mark

I'll be having one in Blue ;)
SMG puts me off the CSL.

[markc]

I'll be having one in Blue ;)
SMG puts me off the CSL.

SMG, the fact that you HAVE to have it on the CSL, is exactly why I'd take the CS :)

The CSL is one of those cars that's crossed to modern collectable classic status very quickly. A CSL goes for about twice the price of a similar age/mileage normal M3.

Cheers

Mark

[Ferris Bueller]

355: I wonder if they really are 375bhp, especially the cat equipped ones. Furthermore, unlike the NSX, I wonder if they keep their power with age
That said, they get near 170 at VMax

http://www.vmax15000bhp.com/

RS4: They do 170 all day when in good health, but are prone to coking issues - the R8 only did 162 at VMax.

IMHO VMax is largely irrelevant.

[NoelWatson]

IMHO VMax is largely irrelevant.

I can't think of a better way of comparing straight line speed in a controlled conditions.

[havoc]

Personally I love the E46 M3. Properly quick, handy size, great soundtrack even has a few luxury's. I'll take a run out CS model (CSL steering rack and brakes) with a manual g'box in Imola Red :)

Cheers

Mark

I was very impressed with the one I drove - everything except the ride, which was planted but very firm and VERY jiggly (didn't upset the composure of the car, but the car transmitted every single bit of gravel in the tarmac through your seat - my 'teg felt comfy in comparison). LOTS of kit, great seats, nice sound, performance every bit the equal of a fit 3.2NSX and better steering feel too.

But it just looks like a normal E46 with a little bit more attitude...and most are in boring black/silver/gun-metal - which make them look even MORE mundane/ordinary. Bit odd IMHO - a car that so clearly is a cut-above looking SO anonymous...and yes, I'd have a CS, albeit in that really nice blue...


Ferris - you need a big power-differential (or at least power/weight differential) to see clear air between cars on the public road...I'd suggest that anything less than 20% is going to seem marginal unless you're wringing both cars out through the gears and into license-losing territory.

[Ferris Bueller]

Ferris - you need a big power-differential (or at least power/weight differential) to see clear air between cars on the public road...I'd suggest that anything less than 20% is going to seem marginal unless you're wringing both cars out through the gears and into license-losing territory.

Absolutely, which is why you could see the difference between a Sagaris and the NSX........except the NSX was demonstrably quicker across the ground.....er....

[AR]

I can't think of a better way of comparing straight line speed in a controlled conditions.

Make it a three mile accelaration strip with plenty of braking at the end and do one run each way.

I can tell you that a 2700 lbs i/h/e 3.0 NSX is faster than an E46 M3.

A low boost 3.0 CTSC NSX walks away from a B5 RS4.

I can only imagine what a high boost, EMSed, low comp NSX can do!

[markc]

Absolutely, which is why you could see the difference between a Sagaris and the NSX........except the NSX was demonstrably quicker across the ground.....er....

That's only possible if a) the Sagaris is very sick or b) the ground is uneven such that the Sagaris can't put it's power down. A healthy Sagaris is a 0-100mph in under 9secs car! That doesn't make them any good tho'.



Make it a three mile accelaration strip with plenty of braking at the end and do one run each way.

I can tell you that a 2700 lbs i/h/e 3.0 NSX is faster than an E46 M3.

A low boost 3.0 CTSC NSX walks away from a B5 RS4.

I can only imagine what a high boost, EMSed, low comp NSX can do!

It's not fair to compare with a modded, or lightened, car. Any car can be modded to make way more power, or less weight (or both), than a standard rival.

The E46 M3 is a good match for a 3.2 NSX, indeed the E36 M3 similarly so for a 3.0 NSX.

Cheers

[AR]

That's only possible if a) the Sagaris is very sick or b) the ground is uneven such that the Sagaris can't put it's power down. A healthy Sagaris is a 0-100mph in under 9secs car! That doesn't make them any good tho'.




It's not fair to compare with a modded, or lightened, car. Any car can be modded to make way more power, or less weight (or both), than a standard rival.

The E46 M3 is a good match for a 3.2 NSX, indeed the E36 M3 similarly so for a 3.0 NSX.

Cheers

Well if you buy an NSX to keep it stock, then why would you care what it can do. :)

Is anyone posting on this thread 100% stock?

[Ferris Bueller]

That's only possible if a) the Sagaris is very sick or b) the ground is uneven such that the Sagaris can't put it's power down. A healthy Sagaris is a 0-100mph in under 9secs car! That doesn't make them any good tho'.

Cheers

Yup 0-100 in under 9 apparently and yet utterly feckless on anything other than a billiard table. Best car TVR ever made so they say. If that's the case then the rest must be dog turd.

[Ferris Bueller]

Well if you buy an NSX to keep it stock, then why would you care what it can do. :)

Is anyone posting on this thread 100% stock?

All comparisons I've made are 100% stock (bar a heavily sorted Nismo 350Z and a track biased GT3), unless someone isn't telling me something about the cars I've driven.

[havoc]

Well if you buy an NSX to keep it stock, then why would you care what it can do. :)

Is anyone posting on this thread 100% stock?

Mechanically, yes. And my 3.0 wouldn't keep up with the E46 I drove. Not as far behind as the power-deficit would suggest, but definitely slower. The 3.2 NSX I drove would probably be on-par with the E46, or near-as.

[NoelWatson]

Make it a three mile accelaration strip with plenty of braking at the end and do one run each way.

I can tell you that a 2700 lbs i/h/e 3.0 NSX is faster than an E46 M3.


I would be very surprised if this were the case at higher speeds (where weight has little effect), and the M3 had the limiter removed.

[NoelWatson]

Slightly OT, but just been watching this drag race on Top Gear. I wonder which Corvette the NSX beat

http://www.vidly.net/video-top-gear-nos-powered-jaguar-xjs.html

NSX is RO03 WYF

[AR]

I don't think that any cars they use for TV are stock. It does not take long for HUK to chuck in an R ECU and gutted cats. They did this at the ring apparently, so...

[NoelWatson]

I don't think that any cars they use for TV are stock. It does not take long for HUK to chuck in an R ECU and gutted cats. They did this at the ring apparently, so...

How hard can it be for someone to work out a cheap way of taking the power related bits from the R ECU and putting it onto our cars?

[havoc]

How hard can it be for someone to work out a cheap way of taking the power related bits from the R ECU and putting it onto our cars?

Surely it'd be just as simple to get a fully-programmable ECU off-the-shelf and remap the whole engine on a rolling road? With better breathing and a proper map you could probably tease a C30 / C32 up to 100bhp/litre even with stock cams and internals.

[AR]

Surely it'd be just as simple to get a fully-programmable ECU off-the-shelf and remap the whole engine on a rolling road? With better breathing and a proper map you could probably tease a C30 / C32 up to 100bhp/litre even with stock cams and internals.

The standard 3.0 produce already close to that power with I/H/E.

The R ECU will have the reliability which many non OEM EMS lack. It will also have many functions that tuners seem to have problems with such a knock control using OEM sensors etc.

Cheers,

AR

[Papalazarou]

I go away for 24 hours and come back to find you guys have turned this thread into V-Max top trumps! Come on guys it was going sooo well. Perhaps you could of posted this in the 'more ponies less weight, spot the missing cats, I can't believe it's not a real group buy thread?'


Cheers,


James.

Sorry, another after work post.

[AR]

I can't believe it's not a real group buy thread?'


Cheers,


James.

I can't believe is not butter!!!

[markc]

I would be very surprised if this were the case at higher speeds (where weight has little effect), and the M3 had the limiter removed.

They are very, very well matched. Virtually identical power to weight ratio (0.22hp/kg), similar gearing (25.25mph/1000rpm (NSX) vs 25.8mph/100rpm (M3)) and the NSX's smaller frontal area counters the M3's greater power at high speed. You said earlier that a known healthy M3 pulled 165mph at Bruntingthorpe compared to your 162mph. That's pretty damn close.


I don't think that any cars they use for TV are stock. It does not take long for HUK to chuck in an R ECU and gutted cats. They did this at the ring apparently, so...

I'm pretty certain that most cars offered to magazine and journalists are stock, certainly Hondas. Having said that they are freshly serviced and checked (aligned etc) each time they go out.

I know for a fact that HUK didn't use "tweaked" NSX's. When I nearly bought P27 (ex SimonPrelude) about 8 years ago I got friendly with the HUK Fleet manager who sent me the service records for it. Essentially it got a full service every 1000miles for the first 14,000 miles.


How hard can it be for someone to work out a cheap way of taking the power related bits from the R ECU and putting it onto our cars?

Very hard apparently. The Honda PGMFi ECU's are quite hard to access anyway and there's very little incentive for anyone to bother with the NSX one due to the tiny market.

The guys over here... http://wikitest.pgmfi.org/twiki/bin/view.pl/Home/PGMFIForum ... are having a go. The NSX ECU seems to have dual maps inside and you have to work out how they interact with each other to change anything.


Surely it'd be just as simple to get a fully-programmable ECU off-the-shelf and remap the whole engine on a rolling road? With better breathing and a proper map you could probably tease a C30 / C32 up to 100bhp/litre even with stock cams and internals.

You'd think wouldn't you but people have tried with the AEM, MoTec, GEM etc units and struggled.

Cheers

Mark

[AR]

I know for a fact that HUK didn't use "tweaked" NSX's. When I nearly bought P27 (ex SimonPrelude) about 8 years ago I got friendly with the HUK Fleet manager who sent me the service records for it. Essentially it got a full service every 1000miles for the first 14,000 miles.


Cheers

Mark

Mark it only takes 15 minutes to remove the panels and reinsert a new ECU as I have no doubt you are aware.

It is documented that the NSX-R did not use cats for the ring times, also how do you expect the Zanardi and others got nearly equal 0-60 as the NSX.

I hope you won't tell me next that 168 is the top speed too!!!

[NoelWatson]

They are very, very well matched. Virtually identical power to weight ratio (0.22hp/kg), similar gearing (25.25mph/1000rpm (NSX) vs 25.8mph/100rpm (M3)) and the NSX's smaller frontal area counters the M3's greater power at high speed. You said earlier that a known healthy M3 pulled 165mph at Bruntingthorpe compared to your 162mph. That's pretty damn close.


But the pre 02 cars have a drag of 0.32 rather than 0.30.



I'm pretty certain that most cars offered to magazine and journalists are stock, certainly Hondas. Having said that they are freshly serviced and checked (aligned etc) each time they go out.

I know for a fact that HUK didn't use "tweaked" NSX's. When I nearly bought P27 (ex SimonPrelude) about 8 years ago I got friendly with the HUK Fleet manager who sent me the service records for it. Essentially it got a full service every 1000miles for the first 14,000 miles.


I just don't but the fact that the 02 car tested could do 0-100 in 10.9, and 171 on the bowl. 285 bhp doesn't do that.

[markc]

Mark it only takes 15 minutes to remove the panels and reinsert a new ECU as I have no doubt you are aware.

It is documented that the NSX-R did not use cats for the ring times, also how do you expect the Zanardi and others got nearly equal 0-60 as the NSX.

I hope you won't tell me next that 168 is the top speed too!!!

Indeed I am (aware how long it takes to swap an ECU) but I was talking about HUK rather than Honda R&D in Germany. I don't know what they did to the Nurburgring car but if you have a link to the info I'd be interested in reading it.

I maintain that all the HUK cars supplied for press duty were bone stock but freshly serviced and therefore in the peak of health.

In the US there have been one, maybe two, freakishly fast press cars. The "Car & Driver" test where a 1998 Coupe ran 4.5sec (0-60mph) and 12.9sec 1/4 mile is the stand out superfast example. They tested a, theoretically lighter, Zanardi the following year and ran 4.8sec and 13.2sec respectively which sounds more realistic. Did HUS supply a "special" for the 1998 test or did C & D just get a perfect launch and run?

Actually yes, I think 168mph is about right for a stock 3.0ltr, as is 172mph for a stock 3.2 pop-up and 175mph for a stock facelift.

Most if not all the cars that have run faster have some mods. "Greenberret", in Germany, car has, like Leigh, top spec I/H/E mods and seriously modded aero to run 180mph.

Cheers

Mark

[markc]

But the pre 02 cars have a drag of 0.32 rather than 0.30.

I just don't but the fact that the 02 car tested could do 0-100 in 10.9, and 171 on the bowl. 285 bhp doesn't do that.

Is that the Autocar test? Acceleration sounds about right, for a professional driver using a fully fit press car. 171mph on what bowl?

Cheers

Mark

[AR]

Actually yes, I think 168mph is about right for a stock 3.0ltr, as is 172mph for a stock 3.2 pop-up and 175mph for a stock facelift.

Cheers

Mark

Mark I strongly disagree. :)

Cheers,

AR

[NoelWatson]

The "Car & Driver" test where a 1998 Coupe ran 4.5sec (0-60mph) and 12.9sec 1/4 mile is the stand out superfast example.
Cheers

Mark

I don't think anyone believes that car was standard

http://forums.caranddriver.com/showthread.php?p=449008

[NoelWatson]

Is that the Autocar test? Acceleration sounds about right, for a professional driver using a fully fit press car. 171mph on what bowl?

Cheers

Mark

The quarter mile time was 12.9 @111mph. So Type-R quick. 171 was on Millbrook bowl so `80 in flat

[NoelWatson]

Mark I strongly disagree. :)

Cheers,

AR

I don't think the 02 would do 175 mph judging by acceleration in top when standard @160

[AR]

Another thing is that NSX engines have shown to greatly vary in power from 260 to 300 in stockish form, 50 horses makes a difference.

[markc]

Mark I strongly disagree. :)

I can tell :) but on what basis? Assume a standard 3.0 Ltr car with it's full factory 270hp on the flat and level with still air... what speed should that car obtain?


The quarter mile time was 12.9 @111mph. So Type-R quick. 171 was on Millbrook bowl so `80 in flat

I'd need to read the article but that is very (too) fast. IF the test car was in full health on a day with cool dense air, the car was accidentally light i.e. missing the spare wheel and toolkit etc AND there was a good following wind, maybe slightly downhill AND they got a perfect launch, a 12.9 quarter might just about be possible.

Could the 171mph be the estimate allowing for scrub?


I don't think the 02 would do 175 mph judging by acceleration in top when standard @160

The final few mph will take a fair while and distance, more than available at Bruntingthorpe. It's only 7mph more than an early car with 20hp more and low cdx (drag including frontal area).

Watch Greenberet's video of his 186mph run/s here... http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123507&highlight=speed


Another thing is that NSX engines have shown to greatly vary in power from 260 to 300 in stockish form, 50 horses makes a difference.

Really, I thought the cars that made low power usually had something specific wrong with them. I would suggest that 40hp spread goes from sick 3.0 Ltr cars to very fit 3.2's.

Cheers

Mark

[Ewan]

I don't think anyone believes that car was standard

http://forums.caranddriver.com/showthread.php?p=449008

Nothing new in having extra-special attention given to press/demo cars.

A friend of mine got a call from a certain Detroit-based manufacturer telling him to fit various significant components that were being shipped over, to a certain press demonstrator car. Just before the car was to be shipped to Italy for a magazine grudge match head/head with a certain Modenese manufacturer's new car. Quelle surprise, the American won the duel, with maybe 15% more horsepower than it should have had...

[NoelWatson]

Could the 171mph be the estimate allowing for scrub?


That is unadjusted




The final few mph will take a fair while and distance, more than available at Bruntingthorpe.


We need to visit Germany



Really, I thought the cars that made low power usually had something specific wrong with them. I would suggest that 40hp spread goes from sick 3.0 Ltr cars to very fit 3.2's.


When Boomin and I went to SRR, our cars were almost identical, as you will recall, so I am with you on this one

[markc]

Nothing new in having extra-special attention given to press/demo cars.

A friend of mine got a call from a certain Detroit-based manufacturer telling him to fit various significant components that were being shipped over, to a certain press demonstrator car. Just before the car was to be shipped to Italy for a magazine grudge match head/head with a certain Modenese manufacturer's new car. Quelle surprise, the American won the duel, with maybe 15% more horsepower than it should have had...

Perhaps but I don't think HUK do it. Frankly they just couldn't be arsed particularly with the NSX ;)

Mark

[NoelWatson]

Just one more point. Simon's press car did 0-100 in 12.4 seconds, so the 02 flyer beat that by 1.5 seconds, and his could only do ~160 on the bowl. Do the new headlights have secret power generators on board?!

[markc]

Just one more point. Simon's press car did 0-100 in 12.4 seconds, so the 02 flyer beat that by 1.5 seconds, and his could only do ~160 on the bowl. Do the new headlights have secret power generators on board?!

Performance Car (mag) recorded 12.2 secs to the ton and a 13.7 sec 1/4 mile, at 106mph terminal speed, when they tested it. So it's closer, just 0.8 sec, over the 1/4 mile.

The figures for the 02 car are great but on another day/venue/driver the figures could be reversed.

Cheers

Mark

[NoelWatson]

Performance Car (mag) recorded 12.2 secs to the ton and a 13.7 sec 1/4 mile, at 106mph terminal speed, when they tested it. So it's closer, just 0.8 sec, over the 1/4 mile.

The figures for the 02 car are great but on another day/venue/driver the figures could be reversed.

Cheers

Mark

I'm not a drag strip expert, but 0.8 seconds is a big difference - I reckon 40-50bhp worth

[simonprelude]

I'm not a drag strip expert, but 0.8 seconds is a big difference - I reckon 40-50bhp worth

Well as the rolling road proved, my car was the highest powered standard car there. So it was either down to the drivers on the tests or the 02+ styling, somehow I doubt the latter, well unless it was just running away trying to hide it's ugly front end.

259.3 hp at the hubs on the day so the laminated sheet here says.

[markc]

I'm not a drag strip expert, but 0.8 seconds is a big difference - I reckon 40-50bhp worth

It is a big differance.

According to this drag time calculator... http://www.letstorquebhp.com/calculator.asp ... the same weight would need 55hp additional HP!!!

Lets face it, that's just NEVER going to be the case between 2 HUK supplied cars with the same mechanicals. No ECU tweaking is going to give you that much power on a naturally aspirated 3.2 Ltr car. Therefore other factors must be at play.

Using the above calculator the 1st car made 330hp if it weighed 1350kg (to run 12.9 secs), the second made 275hp and 1350kg (to run 13.7 secs). The former is unlikely while the latter is very possible if the car was a bit off colour or it was a hot day or a slippery track.

Weight will help. The 02 cars are supposed to be lighter, plus you leave out the spare (who'd check), tool kit, mats, there's not water in the washers etc etc you might save 30kg? That would give you a whole 1/10th of a second :(

Assume the car was in rude heath (295hp) on a day with perfect conditions and somehow tipped the scales at 1320kg... result is 13.28 secs.

There must be some rounding in those claimed figures, say the 12.9sec was actually a 12.94sec.

Assume the driver made a perfect launch, the LSD hooked both rear wheels up perfectly, the clutch held up perfectly, the gear changes all went home beautifully etc etc... conditions and technique would have to make up the 0.36sec?

Doesn't sound unreasonable to me but there're a lot of variables that all need to come together.

Cheers

Mark

[AR]

That's why you can't beat rolling starts, 3 beeps and away you go.

[Ferris Bueller]

Another thing is that NSX engines have shown to greatly vary in power from 260 to 300 in stockish form, 50 horses makes a difference.

I'd be amazed if Honda were passing off NSX engines to a tolerance like that.

[NoelWatson]

It is a big differance.

According to this drag time calculator... http://www.letstorquebhp.com/calculator.asp ... the same weight would need 55hp additional HP!!!

Lets face it, that's just NEVER going to be the case between 2 HUK supplied cars with the same mechanicals. No ECU tweaking is going to give you that much power on a naturally aspirated 3.2 Ltr car. Therefore other factors must be at play.

Using the above calculator the 1st car made 330hp if it weighed 1350kg (to run 12.9 secs), the second made 275hp and 1350kg (to run 13.7 secs). The former is unlikely while the latter is very possible if the car was a bit off colour or it was a hot day or a slippery track.

Weight will help. The 02 cars are supposed to be lighter, plus you leave out the spare (who'd check), tool kit, mats, there's not water in the washers etc etc you might save 30kg? That would give you a whole 1/10th of a second :(

Assume the car was in rude heath (295hp) on a day with perfect conditions and somehow tipped the scales at 1320kg... result is 13.28 secs.

There must be some rounding in those claimed figures, say the 12.9sec was actually a 12.94sec.

Assume the driver made a perfect launch, the LSD hooked both rear wheels up perfectly, the clutch held up perfectly, the gear changes all went home beautifully etc etc... conditions and technique would have to make up the 0.36sec?

Doesn't sound unreasonable to me but there're a lot of variables that all need to come together.

Cheers

Mark

It sounds unreasonable to me that the NSX can do the kilometre in 22.8 seconds @145mph. For comparison

http://www.lambocars.com/tab/kilometer.htm

it was a ringer....

[Ferris Bueller]

It sounds unreasonable to me that the NSX can do the kilometre in 22.8 seconds @145mph. For comparison

http://www.lambocars.com/tab/kilometer.htm

it was a ringer....

The times are questionable, I guess.

However, what I would say is that I drove that car and it felt no different to mine on the road.

ETA I drove RO03 WYF the Imola Targa.
Autocar figures were from a RE02 ### IIRC.

[markc]

It sounds unreasonable to me that the NSX can do the kilometre in 22.8 seconds @145mph. For comparison

http://www.lambocars.com/tab/kilometer.htm

it was a ringer....

Was that from the same test? What issue (date) is it, I'll try and get myself a copy.

Assuming it was a ringer, how do suspect it was rung?

Cheers

Mark

[NoelWatson]

Was that from the same test? What issue (date) is it, I'll try and get myself a copy.

Assuming it was a ringer, how do suspect it was rung?

Cheers

Mark


http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/testvb/showthread.php?p=16704

3rd April 2002 - the km time was mentioned in the annual road up. I can drop both off to you if you would rather scan them.

As for mods....

ECU:
1. How much power do you gain from making the car run richer in VTEC?
2. Map for Super unleaded
3. Raise limiter by a few hundred rpm would help in the lower gears

Cats: Hi flow

Compression ratio: Not easily reversible, but we have seen the difference it makes with your car.

[NoelWatson]

The times are questionable, I guess.

However, what I would say is that I drove that car and it felt no different to mine on the road.

ETA I drove RO03 WYF the Imola Targa.
Autocar figures were from a RE02 ### IIRC.

Who was selling the 2002 press car?

[markc]

http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/testvb/showthread.php?p=16704

3rd April 2002 - the km time was mentioned in the annual road up. I can drop both off to you if you would rather scan them.

As for mods....

ECU:
1. How much power do you gain from making the car run richer in VTEC?
2. Map for Super unleaded
3. Raise limiter by a few hundred rpm would help in the lower gears

Cats: Hi flow

Compression ratio: Not easily reversible, but we have seen the difference it makes with your car.

Thanks Noel, a scan would be good. Where shall we meet, the beers are on me :)

W.R.T to the mods you mention, I don't think they'll add up to 50hp+

Fueling will help a bit. That covers both points 1 & 2
Raising the limiter might help in the 1/4 mile. The 6spd is almost perfectly geared for the dash to 100 as 3rd takes you to 102mph. The 1/4 mile needs a change to 4th just before the line which will hurt it's time.
Hi flow cats should help a bit but can you see HUK having these available?

If it had a proper exhaust fitted that would contribute 15hp as we know. But it would probably be noticeably louder and therefore noticed by the journos?

My view is that an NSX-R motor wouldn't make the differance either. IF they really are more powerful (still debatable) rather than just blueprinted there's still not 50hp there.

IMHO the only way (to make 50hp) is serious inlet and head work, perhaps combined with raised compression and probably combined with a proper exhaust system to make it breath better.

I don't think my car has raised compression? What makes you say that? It's potentially blueprinted, or hand picked during production, but it doesn't make any more power than Paul's.

Cheers

Mark

[NoelWatson]

Thanks Noel, a scan would be good. Where shall we meet, the beers are on me :)

W.R.T to the mods you mention, I don't think they'll add up to 50hp+

Fueling will help a bit. That covers both points 1 & 2
Raising the limiter might help in the 1/4 mile. The 6spd is almost perfectly geared for the dash to 100 as 3rd takes you to 102mph. The 1/4 mile needs a change to 4th just before the line which will hurt it's time.
Hi flow cats should help a bit but can you see HUK having these available?

If it had a proper exhaust fitted that would contribute 15hp as we know. But it would probably be noticeably louder and therefore noticed by the journos?

My view is that an NSX-R motor wouldn't make the differance either. IF they really are more powerful (still debatable) rather than just blueprinted there's still not 50hp there.

IMHO the only way (to make 50hp) is serious inlet and head work, perhaps combined with raised compression and probably combined with a proper exhaust system to make it breath better.

I don't think my car has raised compression? What makes you say that? It's potentially blueprinted, or hand picked during production, but it doesn't make any more power than Paul's.

Cheers

Mark





Thanks Noel, a scan would be good. Where shall we meet, the beers are on me :)


Up to you. Either I bring them to TDI or we meet beforehand



Raising the limiter might help in the 1/4 mile. The 6spd is almost perfectly geared for the dash to 100 as 3rd takes you to 102mph.


I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that the NSX is still producing more power in a lower gear than if you changed up - even at the limiter. This is certainly the case for the lower gears



I don't think my car has raised compression? What makes you say that? It's potentially blueprinted, or hand picked during production, but it doesn't make any more power than Paul's.


I haven't looked at yours and Paul's dynos side by side, but your car produces more power than mine from lower revs, and I don't think this is down to breathing. Don't forget that Paul has the intake as well. Alternatively, your car could have a very good exhaust.

[markc]

Up to you. Either I bring them to TDI or we meet beforehand

Makes sense to wait and see if the TDI date comes off.


was thinking more along the lines of the fact that the NSX is still producing more power in a lower gear than if you changed up - even at the limiter. This is certainly the case for the lower gears

True... but power is tailing of beyond about 7200rpm anyway.


haven't looked at yours and Paul's dynos side by side, but your car produces more power than mine from lower revs, and I don't think this is down to breathing. Don't forget that Paul has the intake as well. Alternatively, your car could have a very good exhaust.

Mine and Paul's were VERY similar, even the operator commented saying they looked like 2 consecutive runs from the same car!

If the TDI cat swap meet happens we should all take along our old last set of data. TDI probably keep records anyway tho'

I'd like to take another look at the 2 Paul's data again to see if they had the same inlet pressure drop that we both had.

Cheers

Mark

[Ferris Bueller]

Who was selling the 2002 press car?

The 03 car I drove wasn't for sale when I drove it. I've never seen RE02 up for sale.

[AR]

Thanks Noel, a scan would be good. Where shall we meet, the beers are on me :)

W.R.T to the mods you mention, I don't think they'll add up to 50hp+

Fueling will help a bit. That covers both points 1 & 2
Raising the limiter might help in the 1/4 mile. The 6spd is almost perfectly geared for the dash to 100 as 3rd takes you to 102mph. The 1/4 mile needs a change to 4th just before the line which will hurt it's time.
Hi flow cats should help a bit but can you see HUK having these available?

If it had a proper exhaust fitted that would contribute 15hp as we know. But it would probably be noticeably louder and therefore noticed by the journos?

My view is that an NSX-R motor wouldn't make the differance either. IF they really are more powerful (still debatable) rather than just blueprinted there's still not 50hp there.

IMHO the only way (to make 50hp) is serious inlet and head work, perhaps combined with raised compression and probably combined with a proper exhaust system to make it breath better.

I don't think my car has raised compression? What makes you say that? It's potentially blueprinted, or hand picked during production, but it doesn't make any more power than Paul's.

Cheers

Mark

Lets have a look at DK's NSX-R Engine:

http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/testvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=6070&d=1250377434


To me it seems that he is using an aftermarket ignition system. We know he is using a Route KZ exhaust, not sure about headers/manifolds. Now can we believe that it is only putting out 280ps!!! LOL

[markc]

Lets have a look at DK's NSX-R Engine:

To me it seems that he is using an aftermarket ignition system. We know he is using a Route KZ exhaust, not sure about headers/manifolds. Now can we believe that it is only putting out 280ps!!! LOL

Who's DK? As I said above, I think it will take mechanical mods (head work) to add the 50hp we're taking about.

Cheers

Mark

[Silver Surfer]

Who's DK? As I said above, I think it will take mechanical mods (head work) to add the 50hp we're taking about.

Cheers

Mark

? Drift King?...from F&F

SS

[AR]

That is Drift King as in Keiichi Tsuchiya.

For 50 yes some work might be needed, but if a standard car produces 280 an IHE 300 then one with free flowing cats and agressive mapp should be 100 BHP per litre so 320 is no unreasonable. That is 40 BHP over stock.

Maybe we should hang on and see if Kaz can shed some light on the subject.

Cheers,

AR

[markc]

That is Drift King as in Keiichi Tsuchiya.

For 50 yes some work might be needed, but if a standard car produces 280 an IHE 300 then one with free flowing cats and agressive mapp should be 100 BHP per litre so 320 is no unreasonable. That is 40 BHP over stock.

Maybe we should hang on and see if Kaz can shed some light on the subject.

Cheers,

AR

Ahh Tsuchiya, of course :D

I have the Best Motoring title (VTEC Club #1) where his own modified NSX-R races a standard NSX-R. At that point he claims no engine mods for his car and indeed those extra ignition leads aren't there. There's very little if anything between the performance of the 2 cars.

I almost agree with you AR but it's a law of diminishing returns. You can't simply add up all the gains each individual change makes. I'd suggest that if a car with I/H/E mods makes 300hp, adding free flow cats and a remap might give you another 10hp, maybe less?

We'll soon know (hopefully) what free flow cats do for a 3.2 Ltr already fitted with a decent exhaust :)

We need to get Fusilov's NSX-R on the TDI rollers to see what a genuine NSX-R engine really adds... if anything ;)

Cheers

Mark