The real NSX successor ....?

[Senninha]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/features/article6961592.ece

Its the only one that gets my vote and if I had it, my money.

Timeless design, built for the enthusiast, ground up design, practicle and useable .... sound familiar?

regards, Paul

[AR]

Paul I echo your sentiments but still I feel that a lot of the supercar makers hada good look at the HSC and took it from there.

If only Ito would grow a pair of balls we could have had the HSC...or even:


( turn up spound! )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpMAfsSk7jM

[Sudesh]

Like that myself! Airbrake is interesting, price though is double what the NSX was.

[havoc]

Yeesss...but at £150k it occupies even more rarefied ground than the NSX did at launch...and I daresay the Macca's running costs won't be anywhere near the sensible (i.e. sub-911) level of the NSX. You may as well point to the Evora or the M600 as the MP4-12-24-56-22-turn-the-handle (ignoring the engines, that is*) - both achieve the 'usable' tag with honours, while still moving the overall game forwards for the competition in their particular category...


Much as I know it's a controversial subject on here, I'd STILL say the R8 (V8) is the most obvious successor, despite 4wd and a hand-me-down engine (which is still pretty mighty, lets be honest!).


* And given the numbers (bhp AND emissions!) game we're talking about in this decade, building a suitable and fully-bespoke engine is not to be undertaken lightly...I'd suggest it's certainly harder than it was in 1989.

[NoelWatson]

Much as I know it's a controversial subject on here, I'd STILL say the R8 (V8) is the most obvious successor, despite 4wd and a hand-me-down engine (which is still pretty mighty, lets be honest!).


Honda would never had released a car that suffered power loss due to the engine getting clogged up.

[markc]

Its the only one that gets my vote and if I had it, my money.

Timeless design, built for the enthusiast, ground up design, practicle and useable .... sound familiar?

I'm with you in terms if what I might move on or upgrade to, but not in the sense of spritual successor to the NSX.

For me it has to come from a mainstream manufacturer and not a racecar or supercar one.

Despite what Noel says (and he's right) the R8 (V8) is still the closest on that front.

Honda are shying away from using Direct Injection which is the cause of the "clogging up" (carbon build up on the valves) problem. This isn't just an R8 or even an Audi/VW problem, other DI engines are suffering the same issue.

I've read that it's caused because fuel, which has detergents added to continually clean carbon deposits, doesn't flow across the back of the inlet valves in a DI engine. One solution is to DI AND port inject fuel with the latter primarily there to clean the valves. Problem is you loose some of the accuracy and therefore power and economy of the DI solution.

I think this is one of the reason why the latest GT3's and E90 M3 don't use Direct Injection.

I guess as long as you know a DI engine will inherently suffer carbon build up and the manufacturer includes a way of removing the carbon deposits at service time it's not a problem.

Cheers

Mark

[NoelWatson]

I'm with you in terms if what I might move on or upgrade to, but not in the sense of spritual successor to the NSX.

For me it has to come from a mainstream manufacturer and not a racecar or supercar one.

Despite what Noel says (and he's right) the R8 (V8) is still the closest on that front.

Honda are shying away from using Direct Injection which is the cause of the "clogging up" (carbon build up on the valves) problem. This isn't just an R8 or even an Audi/VW problem, other DI engines are suffering the same issue.

I've read that it's caused because fuel, which has detergents added to continually clean carbon deposits, doesn't flow across the back of the inlet valves in a DI engine. One solution is to DI AND port inject fuel with the latter primarily there to clean the valves. Problem is you loose some of the accuracy and therefore power and economy of the DI solution.

I think this is one of the reason why the latest GT3's and E90 M3 don't use Direct Injection.

I guess as long as you know a DI engine will inherently suffer carbon build up and the manufacturer includes a way of removing the carbon deposits at service time it's not a problem.

Cheers

Mark

I wonder if the DI cars are having problems because they are not being used hard enough?? I spoke to the Guildford Audi tech manager the other week and he claimed that they weren't aware of any specific issue (they would say that!).

As an aside, our DI 330i broke down for the second time in 18 months lastr week. This time it was a failed coil pack on cylinder #2. Reckon it must've had 3k of warranty work so far. German Engineering at its best!!

[markc]

I wonder if the DI cars are having problems because they are not being used hard enough??

Yep, I understand that the additional heat caused by hard use keeps carbon deposits down but doesn't eliminate the problem in DI engines.

Certainly BMW are having plenty of similar problems with their DI engines, as are Porsche on the 997 and Cayennes with DI.


As an aside, our DI 330i broke down for the second time in 18 months lastr week. This time it was a failed coil pack on cylinder #2. Reckon it must've had 3k of warranty work so far. German Engineering at its best!!

As well as being down on power, which many users won't realise, you may find the engine starts to misfire. Check that your BMW stealer isn't hinding a carbon build up issue behind a failed coil pack excuse! Once warranty has expired you'll end up paying.

The solution is probably to change the fuel but that's arse about face... they (the car manufacturers) should have worked this out before releasing their products to an unsuspecting public.

Cheers

Mark

[havoc]

they (the car manufacturers) should have worked this out before releasing their products to an unsuspecting public.

Cheers

Mark

Why? Most cars won't suffer until after the warranty period has expired, at which point they don't really care. Witness Honda with S2000 suspension bolts, Porsche with RMS, Ford with...well, pretty much anything, really!!! ;)


(Seriously...I agree, it's sh'te - they've introduced this as this great way to get emissions down and sales up, but without long-term testing or any acknowledgement of the coking problem...first (performance*) manufacturer to come up with a workable and affordable plan will get a lot of kudos and a big improvement in residuals!


* Most mainstream car-owners wouldn't notice or care.

[Papalazarou]

The problems really a combination of DI and EGR. Making your car eat it's own dirt is always going to be a problem. When I've got some more time I'll bore you all with the details;-)


Cheers,



James.

[simonprelude]

The Maclaren is too pricey and the R8 too boring (I've now driven both V8 and V10 varieties), besides, would you really risk Maclaren hinge design??

I'm still waiting for something to replace my NSX with, it's looking more and more likely it will be................. another NSX.

[markc]

...first (performance*) manufacturer to come up with a workable and affordable plan will get a lot of kudos and a big improvement in residuals!

Lexus are already using the DI and Port injection solution. All they need is a real life high performance sports car solution... the ISF is still a saloon and LFA is silly money.


The problems really a combination of DI and EGR. Making your car eat it's own dirt is always going to be a problem. When I've got some more time I'll bore you all with the details;-)

Cheers,

James.

Exactly... crankcase pressures, unburnt exhaust gases etc etc

A proper and full explanation is always welcome... by me anyway :)

Cheers

Mark

[Senninha]

The Maclaren is too pricey and the R8 too boring (I've now driven both V8 and V10 varieties), besides, would you really risk Maclaren hinge design??

I'm still waiting for something to replace my NSX with, it's looking more and more likely it will be................. another NSX.

Thanx for getting back on thread Simon ....

Truth is I couldn't bring myself to spend £150k on any car (even a raw CF Zonda if they ever dropped to this ££).

I concur on the R8. I drove my mates manual a few weeks back and whilst you could tell it was a modern car it felt no more special than the Merc. And I still cant get past those stupid lights and non flowing, pumped up TT styling. BTW, anyone else notice how rediculous the door openings are? His local Audi dealer has had loads of them back for bodywork as people keep mis-judging where the door rear edge is :rolleyes:

However, what does interest me from Maclaren is the fact that they are working on a sub £100k model. Still based around the same CF tub (as all 3 cars will), and hopefully with normal doors, this is the model that should be the real successor for the NSX.

regards

[NoelWatson]

Yep, I understand that the additional heat caused by hard use keeps carbon deposits down but doesn't eliminate the problem in DI engines.

Certainly BMW are having plenty of similar problems with their DI engines, as are Porsche on the 997 and Cayennes with DI.



As well as being down on power, which many users won't realise, you may find the engine starts to misfire. Check that your BMW stealer isn't hinding a carbon build up issue behind a failed coil pack excuse! Once warranty has expired you'll end up paying.

The solution is probably to change the fuel but that's arse about face... they (the car manufacturers) should have worked this out before releasing their products to an unsuspecting public.

Cheers

Mark

I sense a dyno visit coming up. There is no way I would run that car out of warranty - looking at ~£1k a year IIRC.

[NoelWatson]

Thanx for getting back on thread Simon ....

Truth is I couldn't bring myself to spend £150k on any car (even a raw CF Zonda if they ever dropped to this ££).

I concur on the R8. I drove my mates manual a few weeks back and whilst you could tell it was a modern car it felt no more special than the Merc. And I still cant get past those stupid lights and non flowing, pumped up TT styling. BTW, anyone else notice how rediculous the door openings are? His local Audi dealer has had loads of them back for bodywork as people keep mis-judging where the door rear edge is :rolleyes:



regards

Interesting about the R8. I drove the RS4 Avant a while back and found that boring but expected the R8 to be better. I need to find a manual for a test drive.

[markc]

I still maintain that to be a true successor it has to come from a mainstream manufacturer. Why don't we revisit the spec that the successor needs have? For me it has to have a combination of the following...

Aluminium or Carbon "tub"
Aluminium or Carbon panels
V6 Turbo or V8 engine (may have to be FI to get the emissions)
Hybrid??
Mid mounted engine (no other location will do)
400-450hp
<1300kg
"Glassy" open feel from inside
£75-£100K tops

So, sub Macca spec and money? Spec is beyond Evora levels. R8 V8 spec/price is currently closest to above.

Maybe the new Esprit will nail it even if it still isn't a mainstream manufacturer? Lexus have all the credentials and most of the hardware to do it, as do BMW.

Cheers

Mark

[NoelWatson]

I still maintain that to be a true successor it has to come from a mainstream manufacturer. Why don't we revisit the spec that the successor needs have? For me it has to have a combination of the following...

Aluminium or Carbon "tub"
Aluminium or Carbon panels
V6 Turbo or V8 engine (may have to be FI to get the emissions)
Hybrid??
Mid mounted engine (no other location will do)
400-450hp
<1300kg
"Glassy" open feel from inside
£75-£100K tops

So, sub Macca spec and money? Spec is beyond Evora levels. R8 V8 spec/price is currently closest to above.

Maybe the new Esprit will nail it even if it still isn't a mainstream manufacturer? Lexus have all the credentials and most of the hardware to do it, as do BMW.

Cheers

Mark

s/c Evora (when it comes out). The new Lee Noble car may be interesting, but obviously not mainstream.

[AR]

I still maintain that to be a true successor it has to come from a mainstream manufacturer. Why don't we revisit the spec that the successor needs have? For me it has to have a combination of the following...

Aluminium or Carbon "tub"
Aluminium or Carbon panels
V6 Turbo or V8 engine (may have to be FI to get the emissions)
Hybrid??
Mid mounted engine (no other location will do)
400-450hp
<1300kg
"Glassy" open feel from inside
£75-£100K tops

So, sub Macca spec and money? Spec is beyond Evora levels. R8 V8 spec/price is currently closest to above.

Maybe the new Esprit will nail it even if it still isn't a mainstream manufacturer? Lexus have all the credentials and most of the hardware to do it, as do BMW.

Cheers

Mark

Mark,

You forget the must be better looking than anything currently on the roads and still look, handle and perform on par with sport cars 15 years from now! :)

[Driver Matt]

I'm sure you've all seen this but I do love the front end.

[eclipse1501]

Clips Live In The Flesh [From Prime]
http://jonsibal.com/blog/2009/12/hsv-010-gt-shakedown/
Honda found a way to compete with this car under a rule that allows production-ready cars which this HSV-010 GT falls under. Eventually, Honda will be required to release a street version of it though

[Silver Surfer]

I'm sure you've all seen this but I do love the front end.


http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/largepic.asp?i=1374956&noPics=9&make=TVR&model=SAGARIS&imgsrv=1&current=2

http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/testvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=6422&d=1261677374

Not too dissimilar no?

SS

[TheSebringOne]

Interesting clips and they sounds amazing! The car looks very compact, but until all the race panel are removed, then the real shape underneath will be interesting to see. So if they have to produce road going versions then it looks like the next gen NSX will hit our streets in the future.

[eclipse1501]

10 mins of the best live test shots yet. Bring your ear plugs!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCqY-vAX4EA

[WhyOne?]

The Maclaren is too pricey .........would you really risk Maclaren hinge design??



Maclaren are renowned for producing pushchairs which decapitate people! (Which I suspect is the source of your comment re. hinge design!)

I agree that the McLaren is too expensive (both to qualify as a replacement for the NSX & for me to buy).
I would trust McLaren design, engineering & build over Ferrari (or just about any other auto manufacturer you care to mention) every time.

[TheSebringOne]

Wow, it sounds amazing! I noted it has a single exhaust with flames! I assume this is a race set up? Didn't the HSC concept have two centre exhaust tips?

[eclipse1501]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxdVypQmbjo&feature=response_watch

Some better quality Japanese TV shots have turned up of the HSV car close up [above] and on track [below]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svyg-h_3iD8&feature=response_watch

[JQD84983]

Christ it sounds better than it looks which takes some doing!

The package looks very tasty

[havoc]

Christ it sounds better than it looks which takes some doing!

Race-spec engine, that's why. Probably 80% of the ability of an F1 engine easily.

Sadly, I'd expect the road-car to use something rather more mundane, although any multi-cylinder VTEC is still going to sound awesome!

[NoelWatson]

Yep, I understand that the additional heat caused by hard use keeps carbon deposits down but doesn't eliminate the problem in DI engines.

Certainly BMW are having plenty of similar problems with their DI engines, as are Porsche on the 997 and Cayennes with DI.



As well as being down on power, which many users won't realise, you may find the engine starts to misfire. Check that your BMW stealer isn't hinding a carbon build up issue behind a failed coil pack excuse! Once warranty has expired you'll end up paying.

The solution is probably to change the fuel but that's arse about face... they (the car manufacturers) should have worked this out before releasing their products to an unsuspecting public.

Cheers

Mark

Mark,

I think you are being a bit harsh on BMW. Ours has just gone at least two months before the EML came on today. WHAT A PILE OF JUNK!

[Dimer]

The HSV has the F3 V8 engine. The engineers said that they especially wanted that sound. They even had an exhaust with more power, but they went for this one, because it sounded better :D

[eclipse1501]

http://www.honda.co.jp/SuperGT/spcontents2010/machine/

The HSV sound is captured on this official Honda sampler. Plus artwork of their "Bird of Prey". You can use *** translator to work out the significance of that!

By the way here's my last punt for Sunday F1 (and Season) Not sure of the pecking order but these are my main protagonists: Button (driving better in the skin of a world champ), Hamilton (driving out of his skin), Alonso (will skin anyone who gets in his way)

[NSXGB]

By the way here's my last punt for Sunday F1 (and Season) Not sure of the pecking order but these are my main protagonists: Button (driving better in the skin of a world champ), Hamilton (driving out of his skin), Alonso (will skin anyone who gets in his way)
I think The Chin should not be under estimated even though he's been out of it a couple of seasons. All there new regulations and Ross Brawn being the master of strategy. . . Whatever happens, it's going to be good.

[havoc]

Mark,

I think you are being a bit harsh on BMW. Ours has just gone at least two months before the EML came on today. WHAT A PILE OF JUNK!

Oh, that's not good...what age / what engine / what mileage?

(I'm seriously considering a petrol 2nd-hand 3- or 5 touring when the time comes to be sensible and practical...but not if it's likely to cost £££)

[NoelWatson]

Oh, that's not good...what age / what engine / what mileage?

(I'm seriously considering a petrol 2nd-hand 3- or 5 touring when the time comes to be sensible and practical...but not if it's likely to cost £££)


2 years old - 330i 22k miles

If you do buy one, make sure it is not the DI engine.

[havoc]

Cheers for that Noel, I will...what year did they swap over? When it became 260bhp?


TBH I'd prefer a Legacy 3.0R Tourer, but they're like hens teeth, so the 330i is probably the next best combination of decent-to-drive & reliable while still being practical.

[Senninha]

............ so the 330i is probably the next best combination of decent-to-drive & reliable while still being practical.

err, no. Oil burner 330 or 335d without the sport kit but with the suspension then boost it to the max with a software tweak and you have a wolf in sheeps clothing! It will toast an M3, give near 40mpg and not attract attention from the missus when you'r being 'sensible' ;)

[NoelWatson]

Cheers for that Noel, I will...what year did they swap over? When it became 260bhp?


TBH I'd prefer a Legacy 3.0R Tourer, but they're like hens teeth, so the 330i is probably the next best combination of decent-to-drive & reliable while still being practical.

I think it was late 2007

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N53

[havoc]

Perfect - thanks again Noel. You going to be at the S'stone Classic?...we're long overdue meeting up for a pint (on me) and a chat!!!


Paul...I've a pathological aversion to spending my own money on a modern common-rail diesel...at least without a copper-bottomed warranty thrown in! ;) Plus I genuinely prefer the way a n/asp petrol drives...I like sound and throttle-response over absolute power, ease-of-driving and fuel-economy. Which discounts most turbo-petrols and all turbo-diesels.

And yes, I know how good the x35d engine is...a mate in a (stock) 535d hung onto the back of the S2000 up to a fair old lick coming off a damp d-c roundabout! :(

[markc]

err, no. Oil burner 330 or 335d without the sport kit but with the suspension then boost it to the max with a software tweak and you have a wolf in sheeps clothing! It will toast an M3, give near 40mpg and not attract attention from the missus when you'r being 'sensible' ;)

Noooo, don't go weasel, weasel is evil :)

Seriously though, I guess you either love 'em or hate 'em. Yes they can be fast and yes they're economical for the turn of speed they have. I'd much rather go a bit slower in a 330i

No way a tweaked 330/335D with toast an M3 though. I accept it will worry one but you will be forever hitting the sub 5K redline and won't be enjoying the soundtrack or throttle response much either. Not that you can have an M3 Tourer.


Paul...I've a pathological aversion to spending my own money on a modern common-rail diesel...at least without a copper-bottomed warranty thrown in! ;) Plus I genuinely prefer the way a n/asp petrol drives...I like sound and throttle-response over absolute power, ease-of-driving and fuel-economy. Which discounts most turbo-petrols and all turbo-diesels.

Well put Havoc.

Wot's wrong with good old Honda chaps? I'm quite enjoying my new (to me) Generation 7, 2.4 Accord Tourer. OK it's only a 4 banger (4 cylinder) but 190hp gives it a fair turn of speed, no DI to worry about and, fingers crossed, Honda reliability. The latest Generation 8 2.4 petrol version makes over 200hp :)

Cheers

Mark

[Senninha]

I guess I'm just growing usd to going 550-600 miles between fill ups and yet still having fun when alone. Yet put the family on board and I can cruise around letting the torque and the auto delivered a relaxed family mover experience.

When I want real noise, involvement and response I take the other car :D

[AR]

After seen what the New Mercs and BMW diesels can do, if I needed an everyday car that could be fun too it would be an oil burner. In fact I own two TD Landcruisers, but they are for work.

I still hate the smell of diesel, and why do people have to spill it so much. Some pump handles look like they have been smeared on purpose!

[gumball]

I've never been a fan of deisels but BMW X3 3.0sd caught my eye, doesn't sound too bad either.

[TheSebringOne]

I had a petrol 3.0 Sport, great car to drive, but suspension was too hard and was particulary bouncy for back passengers. It was a quick car and handled car like, but it was thirsty! May be should have waited for the 3.0 D instead from the X5!?

[gumball]

The X5 looks a bit better but the X3 wins in top trumps, 0-60 in 6.4 sec* and 150 mph.


* It shouldn't matter but... :bigsmile:

[markc]

Away from weasel discussion (phew) and back on topic...

Autocar is streaming the launch of the MP4 12C on Thursday... http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/248208/#

Cheers

Mark

[eclipse1501]

Just to bring the thread up to date here is a rendition of the road going version HSV.

[AR]

I wish it could happen, but as Honda has no backbone, I seriously doubt it will!

[Dragonlady]

Just do it Honda, you know it makes sense!

Ian

[AR]

Well it needs to be faster than an entry level 997 and the same price.

[gumball]

Just to bring the thread up to date here is a rendition of the road going version HSV.

Thats CG hash up based on the super GT which they could not make into a road car, it's been sectioned and channeled and all sorts of other things with hot rod related names.

[markc]

Thats CG hash up based on the super GT which they could not make into a road car, it's been sectioned and channeled and all sorts of other things with hot rod related names.

... and it's still ugly :(

I hope Honda don't build that or indeed any other front engined machine to succeed/replace the NSX.

Cheers

Mark

[AR]

... and it's still ugly :(

I hope Honda don't build that or indeed any other front engined machine to succeed/replace the NSX.

Cheers

Mark

Why?

It is clear that the HSV is really Mid Engine and will no doubt handle better than the NSX.

[jaytip]

I agree with Mark,if it's going to be called an NSX,it needs to be rear mid engine and follow on from the NSX in layout at least.

[AR]

But it wont be called NSX or be aimed at the GTR. It will be marginally faster than a 997.

[markc]

Why?

It is clear that the HSV is really Mid Engine and will no doubt handle better than the NSX.

Why is it ugly? Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder but long bonnets don't do it for me. It looks like something AMG might do as next generation super SL.

Sorry, so called front-mid engined cars don't count as mid engined, the motor is ahead of the driver and therefore dictates the profile and the fundamental handling characteristics. Astons, super-Mercs and BeeEmms, Corvettes etc all fundamentally lack rear traction. Allied to this stuffing the engine under the dashboard/centre console severely restricts front footwell space and interior space in general.

Sure it can be made to handle well but IMHO they would do much better starting with a proper mid engine design :)

Cheers

Mark

[Senninha]

Just to bring the thread up to date here is a rendition of the road going version HSV.

Eurocrats would be highly unlikely to let that hit the road, however, the 'real' road version seen running around the 'Ring in 08/09 still has my interest.

Will it happen ... unlikely .... but never say never. As for calling it NSX, please let that debate go guys, it want be NSX but it could be a new flagship vehicle ... or should I say, halo as is the modern term.

Priced at entry level 911 money it would sell in strong numbers, especially if it has an edge on performance with assurity from the SH_AWD system.

I'm still watching ......:)

[markc]

As for calling it NSX, please let that debate go guys, it want be NSX but it could be a new flagship vehicle ... or should I say, halo as is the modern term.

I guess that's the issue I/we have, if it's going to be Honda's new flagship and it's also a 2 door sports car it has some fundamental similarities to the NSX so I/we see it as Honda's attempt at replacing the NSX.


Priced at entry level 911 money it would sell in strong numbers, especially if it has an edge on performance with assurity from the SH_AWD system.

Personally I seriously doubt it. Honda still doesn't have the brand equity to draw people away from Porsche... or even BMW and Audi.

Very probably immaterial as Honda probably won't build it anyway.

Cheers

Mark

[Senninha]

.......... but IMHO they would do much better starting with a proper mid engine design :)

Cheers

Mark

Which is what Audi thought with the R8. For me that is a design that doesn't work and is without the 'heritage' of the mid engined Italians, its residuals have fallen heavily ... bit like the NSX did when it arrived.

So on this info, why would Honda invest in another mid engined design, there simply isn't the market for them outside of the established players (although Maclaren may break this rule IMO). The version seen running around the Ring would have more appeal, be more marketable and probably sell in higher volumes if priced right ...

The debate continues :D

[NoelWatson]

with assurity from the SH_AWD system.




Is this necessary with modern stability control systems?

[NoelWatson]

Which is what Audi thought with the R8. For me that is a design that doesn't work and is without the 'heritage' of the mid engined Italians, its residuals have fallen heavily



I still can't see any "cheap" R8s

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1772256.htm

this is the cheapest on PH - what did it originally sell for - early 80s? Is this any worse than equivalent 911?

[markc]

Which is what Audi thought with the R8. For me that is a design that doesn't work and is without the 'heritage' of the mid engined Italians, its residuals have fallen heavily ... bit like the NSX did when it arrived.


I still can't see any "cheap" R8s

this is the cheapest on PH - what did it originally sell for - early 80s? Is this any worse than equivalent 911?

I agree Noel. R8 residuals are quite reasonable (percentage wise), similar to Porsche and Ferrari and seemingly stronger than its Lambo sister car.

I have to say I'm surprised at the success of the R8, I predicted it would fail commercially but it's done better than I thought. I suspect the fairly prompt addition of the V10 and Spyder to the range has helped. I'd plump for the V8 myself though :)


So on this info, why would Honda invest in another mid engined design, there simply isn't the market for them outside of the established players (although Maclaren may break this rule IMO). The version seen running around the Ring would have more appeal, be more marketable and probably sell in higher volumes if priced right ...

The debate continues :D

Why indeed? but similarly why go up against Aston Martin and BMW in the front engine RWD Sports GT category in preference to Lamborghini and Ferrari in the mid engine RWD Sports car category? The lower price point means smaller profit margins so the extra units you might sell don't make you any more money.

Either way they're likely to get a kicking commercially, BUT if you have ambition you have to start somewhere!

Look at Lexus, zero to serious exec market player in 10yrs. Audi have gone from solid but dull mid market players to genuine Mercedes rivals over the last 10yrs. Honda have had some success with the Acura sub brand in the US but haven't followed it through with enough commitment to boundary pushing models... no serious NSX development or follow-up, good but dull Legends, no gangster/footballer edition 800hp 4x4 etc. Poor linking between motorsport success (they've had plenty) and their road car programs hasn't helped either.

Cheers

Mark

[AR]

Is the middle of summer, give until after november and watch them drop to high 40s.

[markc]

Is the middle of summer, give until after november and watch them drop to high 40s.

So drop about 15%... along with every other machine mentioned above ;)

Cheers

Mark

[Nick Graves]

Is this necessary with modern stability control systems?

"Necessary" troubles me; I think you're missing the point of SH-AWD.

The ASC/GT5000 ought to have demonstrated the system's abilities to a stunning degree, because of the front-mid layout. It really ought to combine the advantages of 4WS,ATTS & 4WD.

I hope that Acura brings back the inline crank layout for next year's RL/Legend. It'll likely be a hybrid V6, but that's no reason for it not to drive with stunning capability.

[NoelWatson]

"Necessary" troubles me; I think you're missing the point of SH-AWD.

The ASC/GT5000 ought to have demonstrated the system's abilities to a stunning degree, because of the front-mid layout. It really ought to combine the advantages of 4WS,ATTS & 4WD.

I hope that Acura brings back the inline crank layout for next year's RL/Legend. It'll likely be a hybrid V6, but that's no reason for it not to drive with stunning capability.

Can't we leave that kind of thing to Nissan and have a simple high revving NA engine feeding the rear wheels?

[AR]

Can't we leave that kind of thing to Nissan and have a simple high revving NA engine feeding the rear wheels?

AC Cobra lol!

I like the way an NSX handles but the fact is that 99.9 percenty of the public will prefer Front/Middle engine platform. Even room for a 2+2 with child seats and teh saleability jumps! Let Honda make some £££ then they can NSX us again.

[Nick Graves]

Can't we leave that kind of thing to Nissan and have a simple high revving NA engine feeding the rear wheels?

I do sympathise, but there's a lot to suggest the Honda system is vastly superior.

It's also the way the industry's becoming, I'm afraid.