what is my next car? 3 choices

[marylebone]

Hi, just wondering if you could give me some advice please:

1. NSX facelift 3.2 manual (T or coupe). All time favourite. Just wondering about the age issue: quite advanced for its time (1990) but has changed very little in 15 years while others took note back then and stepped up. Also, final ones already 5 years old (05).

2. Lancer Evo X FQ300-400. Test drove the 300, drives better than anything I've tried. Not too keen on the boy racer looks and certainly no comparison with the NSX in many ways, especially in terms of depreciation, but what a drive it is - serious competition for any car at any price.

3. SLK 55 AMG Black Series. Long time fan of the brand and always keen on very limited editions, plus huge power/torque and reduced weight - still a Merc but the BS is supposed to be AMG's track oriented version. Quite hard to find though.

Porsche is not a choice as I find maintenance too costly: had an expensive experience with a 996 C2 first gen.

Which one would you choose? Cheers

[NSX 2000]

Hi, just wondering if you could give me some advice please:

1. NSX facelift 3.2 manual (T or coupe). All time favourite. Just wondering about the age issue: quite advanced for its time (1990) but has changed very little in 15 years while others took note back then and stepped up. Also, final ones already 5 years old (05).



Last time I looked mine had only just turned 4 years old since date of first reg, but if you really want to split hairs it was probably built August/September 2005, so not even 4 and half years old.

The reasson for so little change is due to the fact it was so advanced in the first place. However over the years changes did take place but because they never changed the interior people think they didn't.

I haven't had a Porche, Evo or Merc so can't comment. But there are other owners who do or have owened the above and can compare.

HTH

Paul.

[Senninha]

Hi & Seasons Greetings,

As Paul says, there were many tweaks made over the years but for people not familiar with the NSX, many will have gonne un-noticed. Apart from the obvious facelift in 2002, the NSX had chassis, brakes, engine tweaks throughout its lifetime.

The facelift car is as complete as most cars on the roads today.

My question back to you would be to ask how you intend to use the car? As a dialy I would find the EVO tiring and thirsty but would choose it if I had a long A/B road commute. The BS have an attraction that I too am interested in but struggle with the Merc being much more than a solid mile muncher attached to a diesel auto set up. With an NSX, you can do th daily commute, you can do the long Euro trips and you can also go for fun drives and receive respect from other road users.

A nice choice but only you can really decide which best suits your driving and requirements

regards, Paul

[marylebone]

2000:
Cheers, not crucial if it's 4, 4.5 or 5 yo, the point is that a facelift NSX could be anywhere between 4-8 yo and that wouldn't be the case for the other 2 choices. I understand some changes did take place during the 15 year run, but none change the driving experience IMO (not even the increase in engine size to 3.2 or the 6-gear box), i.e. I don't think I would notice any difference between driving a 97 NA2 manual and a 05 (55) NA2 facelift. would you?

The NSX is my favourite car to look at of the three but I don't want to be blinded by desire to end up with an old car that simply cannot compete with newer cars that were conceived/designed 15+ years ahead. Don't get mad please, I'm just saying that it may be too much to ask of the NSX to still be competing with current production cars today. New NSX long time due?

Senna:
The car will not be a daily user (after the first couple of months!). Merc BS is looking good, especially CLK 63 BS but not looking to spend that much; SLK 55BS is amazing, handbuilt and track tuned by AMG in Affalterbach, just somewhat concerned about 400hp/520Nm in a light RWD car. I'm sure the Evo X, even in 300 form, would leave the other 2 behind in any dry track with a couple of twists (nevermind rain/snow) but it's just not in the same league than the others in looks/general appeal.

Cheers

[AR]

FWIW the SLK55 AMG is not faster than a 3.0 NSX, the Evo will drop the £££ faster than it's 0 -60 speed.

Perhaps because I am a big guy or perhaps because of the high numbers of smaller engine variety cars around here, but the SLK is not a car I would consider.

The EVO is a really capable car but a very financially unwise buy, like most cars, but more so the EVO. They are great value, but due to the maintenance schedule and affordability, lots have been neglected.

[marylebone]

FWIW the SLK55 AMG is not faster than a 3.0 NSX

Can't agree: we're talking 55 Black Series. 400hp and power-to-weight ratio 3.73 Kg/hp. NSX 3.0 is not comparable at 4.91. It would have to have 362hp or weigh 1,025 Kg to achieve same 3.73 ratio, or the 55BS power would have to drop to just 304hp or weight increased to 1,964 Kg to achieve the same ratio as the NSX (4.91). Not really bothered about small differences, but in this case they're quite significant. Not a huge fan of the brand, but even the "average" BMW 135i/335i (great engine) could be faster than the 3.0 NSX IMO.


the Evo will drop the £££ faster than it's 0 -60 speed.

Completely agree. It's a big downside.


Perhaps because I am a big guy or perhaps because of the high numbers of smaller engine variety cars around here, but the SLK is not a car I would consider.

Fair point: loads of SLKs all over the place and lots of them driven by ladies. This is a track-oriented BS however, with a production run of under 100 cars I believe. Merc has a huge following, so very collectable too.


The EVO is a really capable car but a very financially unwise buy, like most cars, but more so the EVO. They are great value, but due to the maintenance schedule and affordability, lots have been neglected.

Fair point too. But since it was only released in 08, it means that you could find a low mileage example with 4-5 year guarantee directly from a dealership, which I think is impossible nowadays in the case of the NSX (no longer sold via dealerships, all private sales, no guarantee... the age issue comes up again).

Cheers

[AR]

Sorry I did not read the BS series bit I was speaking from a stock SLK55AMG point. My 3.0 NSX-R had no problems at all keeping and passing the garden variety R171.

But as the AMG SLK55AMG is a tuned car perhaps a low boost CTSC lightweight NSX is a better comparison. :)

[marylebone]

...factory-tuned by AMG however so it is stock (long term value); my 2c would be to keep a facelift NSX stock. The BS is the most expensive of the 3 and quite hard to find but maybe worth the extra cash (what about that V8 sound!). All 3 are great cars in their own regard, that's why it's hard to choose... can't beat the Evo for price/performance/guarantee, but you have to live with the depreciation (and everything else).

[AR]

Look at the price of Brabus etc, they drop a ton of money in 5 years. NSX looks great and perfroms really well. Look at servicing frequency when comparing to the EVO.

[marylebone]

agree to a certain extent, but AMG Black Series is not like Brabus in terms of long term value (AMG is Mercedes). If it were just for the pure driving experience, Evo X beats both NSX and BS but I would certainly prefer to own either of those 2 and possibly borrow my mate's FQ300 for a weekend (it is an incredible piece of engineering and latest model "Evo X" is easier to live with than before to improve sales).

NSX looks great and performs well, no doubt about that and loads of reviews to confirm it, but maybe it is starting to get old for what I am after (even late facelifts). Also, it could attract just enough attention to make me feel uncomfortable, the BS being somewhat more discreet, but none of the 3 are really mainstream cars either.

Question now should be: would anyone consider trading an 04/05 NSX for a 55 Black Series (under 100 produced)??

[AR]

Hard to say, it is a more modern car etc, but IMHO is not groundbreaking as the NSX was.

[PeteM]

Hi Marylebone,

Here is my 2 pence for what it's worth and please do not take this the wrong way.

You mention about age and compare the Nsx to "modern cars" like the Brabus and Evo, well the modern cars now have masses amount of horse power and torque and all have quite impressive pub figures but the majority of them you can't drive quickly with out the help of electronics to keep it on the road or track (Unless you are the Stig).

This is fine if you want a very fast car but it will never give you the level of feedback through it's chassis in comparison to an non-electronic assisted Nsx. If you ever get the chance to drive a Nsx over a twisty section of A or B roads you will understand it's abilities and attraction.

If you want a Modern fast car with a new Reg plate avoid the Nsx, if how ever you want an iconic drivers car with a fantastic induction noise the Nsx will never fail to put a smile on your face.

The Nsx set standards that only now modern cars with electronics are exceeding, Just ask a certain "Mr Gordon Murray" on his opinions.

Good luck with your car decision and enjoy!

Regards

Pete.

[AR]

Pete,

The problem is that soo many journos have wrote soo much nonsense about NSXs, half of them only driving ropey autos or with Porsche glasses on. Combine that with the fact that most people can't get to drive/ride in one. Add in a dose of Cat D, Cat C or crash repaired JDM autos lowering the value and we arrive here.

To any prospect owner just go and drive a well sorted NSX, and then and only then can you really make an informed choice.

Cheers,

AR

[PeteM]

To any prospect owner just go and drive a well sorted NSX, and then and only then can you really make an informed choice.

Cheers,

AR


AR,

I think you have just made the most sensible and logical quote yet regarding the Nsx. Let it speak for it's self !

Regards,

Pete.

[marylebone]

All very sound advice. Every car feels different and not everyone has the same tastes so a test drive is certainly required. FQ300 was a fantastic experience but I cannot see myself owning it for the long term, so its really down to NSX or Black Series (bearing in mind the high benchmark in terms of driving set by the evo X). Both have lots of pros and few cons, but I must admit I have a slight preference for the BS, which is a modern car, while the NSX is an exceptional car that was designed/developed 20 years ago (late 80s) and there's nothing we can do about that fact (big con, for me at least). It'll be down to the test drive, but unless the NSX drives noticeably better than the BS, the BS is the better allround package for me - in 2010 the NSX can't still be expected to beat everything out there.

Cheers for the advice and good to see you're sensible people (and not outright fanatics).

[AR]

Whichever way you go good luck and don't the first one you drive. :)

[Unregistered]

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[eclipse1501]

FWIW I think if the NSX is not in your blood then you must be a Merc driver.
Yes Merc driver maybe + 1

[simonprelude]

FWIW I think if the NSX is not in your blood then you must be a Merc driver.

What happens if you're both ??

[marylebone]

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[AR]

There is a certain Merc driver that might still cut the cake in the 2010 F1 season!

[marylebone]

BTW, no offence but we have to be honest here. A N'ring lap time of 8:38 is Golf IV R32 or Merc SL500 time, i.e. slower than Focus RS, Astra VXR, Subaru Impreza (04, vanilla), Audi TTS, Nissan 350Z, BMW 335i, Audi S5, Jag XKR, Lotus Exige S, Lexus IS-F, Merc C63AMG (nevermind Black Series Mercs), and almost every BMW M (even a Z3M roadster from 98), Audi RS, Porsche (even a vanilla Boxster) and Evo (even an evo VI from 1999, nevermind the X), a full 1'12'' slower than the GT-R, etc etc etc. It's practically slower than any decent modern car today. The 13-mile Nordschleife is plenty for any car to show what it's really made of.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/track2.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_times

This is not a nice surprise as it really seems to struggle with modern cars (and some others that are 10+ years old, see times for Z3M, evo VI or Porsche 993), I just didn't think the NSX would be so far down the list. Sorry chaps, but unless someone has a coherent explanation, I think I'd prefer not to own a truly beautiful car but which is slower than a factory-tuned Vauxhall Astra or Ford Focus or any Porsche built since the late 90s (993, 986 onwards).

What about the C6 'vette, even the "basic" non-Z06 is way up there (40" quicker than the NSX). Yet another surprise...

[eclipse1501]

I still consider my 997 and SL500, even my classic air cooled 911 as "transport" but i bought into the NSX as a little bit of motoring history and enjoy running it. When it comes to comparing lap times why not just get yourself a GTR or the like. The NSX is a 20 year old platform, like i say if its not in the blood!

[AR]

You fail to see that the car in question was an older 1997 car that was stock.

Look at the times of both NSX-R, I think you had a Specsavers moment there chap!

You can make a beautiful, exotic car faster yet you can't make a Focus, Astra or mainstream Merc beatiful and exotic ( unless we are talking SLR )

Take an 02 plus NSX, drop the spare, drop the Exhaust and fit a hi flowing exhaust with free flowing cats and you are cooking. Take a healthy 3.0 NSX fit a low boost SC and then you are on fire.

[AR]

Oh and don't forget that with fairly stock 3.0 NSX people have achieved over 180 MPH GPS confirmed.

Have you driven and NSX yest or are you still quoting from mags and others opinions.

[AR]

One more from that site you quoted:

http://www.fastestlaps.com/car45c483184b697.html

[Papalazarou]

BTW, no offence but we have to be honest here. A N'ring lap time of 8:38 is slower than Focus RS, Astra VXR, Subaru Impreza (04, vanilla), Audi TTS, Nissan 350Z, BMW 335i, Audi S5, Jag XKR, Lotus Exige S, Lexus IS-F, Merc C63AMG (nevermind Black Series), and almost every BMW M (even a Z3M roadster from 98), Porsche (even a vanilla Boxster S) and Evo (even an evo VI from 1999, nevermind X), a full 1'12'' slower than the GT-R, etc etc etc. It's practically slower than any decent modern car today. The 13-mile Nordschleife is plenty for any car to show what it's really made of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_times

This is not a nice surprise as it really seems to struggle with modern cars (and some others that are 10+ years old, see times for Z3M, evo VI or Porsche 993), I just didn't think the NSX would be so far down the list. Sorry chaps, but unless someone has a coherent explanation, I think I'd prefer not to own a truly beautiful car but which is slower than a factory-tuned Vauxhall Astra or Ford Focus or any Porsche built since the late 90s (993, 986 onwards).

What about the C6 'vette, even the "basic" non-Z06 is way up there. Yet another surprise...


There should be a rule about NR lap times. They do not belong on these kinds of threads, or on this forum full stop. This isn't a dig at anyone. My point is, perhaps a surprising one for a performance car forum is that for 99.9% of performance car owners, lap time shouldn't matter at all.
Most of us do most of our driving on A and B roads, perhaps a tiny bit on track and some will take our cars abroad and do some touring.
Now, what I can never understand is why people keep buying cars based on how they compare on paper.
It's a weak guide at best. Personally, I'm much more concerned about; ride, sound, ocassion, dynamics, build etc etc. whether a Vauxhall astra is faster around a German toll road has never mattered to me, and when I'm out driving, it's never been the nagging thought that's screwed up my enjoyment.
If you've ever done a track day, I guarantee you there's a mk1 mini that's out lapping 95% of the new exotica out on track. Or a DC2 being held up through the bends by a resonably well driven 911, RS4, M3 etc.
The NSX is a superbly built work of art. It ticks most of the boxes for people who really appreciate cars. Sound, dynamics, build, performance, etc etc.
you can go out and buy a VXR, an Exige, a Z3 or even an imprezza. But they aren't and will never be special. they're disposable modern sports expresses with little or no character and average build quality. They will vent money from your wallet and will provide no sense of ocassion whilst they're doing it.

The final point about the 993 is wrong. The NSX was always a more capable vehicle. If you read any review from the 90's that becomes pretty clear. The 996 incarnation was barely faster and suffered lots of engine issues.

The bottom line however is that the NSX is much greater than the sum of it's parts and it's impossible to give a proper appraisal unless you've driven one.

I had NSX's for the best part of five years, fancied a change so bought a 997S. Initial feelings are that it's a backward step. It's faster in a straight line, but the balance isn't there. However, it's early days so hopefully I'll bond with it. I imagine it'll be better at some stuff and not so good at others.

I guess it just comes down to what's important in your world. I could never own a Z06 because it's badly built and that's important to me.

Cheers,


James.

[marylebone]

We're opening pandora's box if we get into modifications so let's just leave that...

I'm not after a jet fighter here but the lap time is that of Merc SL500 and Golf IV R32, and those are not exactly supercars as far as I'm aware. NSXs are not readily available for test drives and the N'ring figures are official times set by professional race drivers in a controlled environment, so I wouldn't readily dismiss these official figures as irrelevant. A few secs up and down doesn't matter, but the difference is quite considerable.

Bottom line is that you have to test drive the car yourself, fully agree, and sorry if I pissed you chaps off, just trying to be honest here. Really like the car but the hard fact is that it is slower, unless the test was carried with the handbrake engaged! It was a marvel when it appeared but let's not expect the unexpectable 20 years on.



I had NSX's for the best part of five years, fancied a change so bought a 997S. Initial feelings are that it's a backward step. It's faster in a straight line, but the balance isn't there. However, it's early days so hopefully I'll bond with it. I imagine it'll be better at some stuff and not so good at others.

Thanks Mr.P, this is exactly the kind of productive feedback I was looking for. Cheers. C6 not my cup of tea either but maybe worth a drive, I had a big surprise with the evo X, wouldn't own it long term either though. I know you all love your cars but there's no need to get violent. It's just cars we're talking!

Any other feedback from people who have owned 02+ NSXs in the past and who are now driving "modern" cars? (anyone except the user who posts an irrelevant message as "unregistered" at 12:09, to then quote that to post a second message at 12:10, not a minute later, this time as a registered user, pretending to be two different people. Are children allowed in here or what?)

[AR]

Please go an drive an NSX whichevr one you were contemplating, then write your impressions.

The rest is just like school boys kids bragging about banging celebrities etc!

[marylebone]

I will, I will, don't get all geared up again...AR!

Any other feedback from people who have owned 02+ NSXs in the past and who are now driving "modern" cars?

[simonprelude]

BTW, no offence but we have to be honest here. A N'ring lap time of 8:38 is Golf IV R32 or Merc SL500 time, i.e. slower than Focus RS, Astra VXR, Subaru Impreza (04, vanilla), Audi TTS, Nissan 350Z, BMW 335i, Audi S5, Jag XKR, Lotus Exige S, Lexus IS-F, Merc C63AMG (nevermind Black Series Mercs), and almost every BMW M (even a Z3M roadster from 98), Audi RS, Porsche (even a vanilla Boxster) and Evo (even an evo VI from 1999, nevermind the X), a full 1'12'' slower than the GT-R, etc etc etc. It's practically slower than any decent modern car today. The 13-mile Nordschleife is plenty for any car to show what it's really made of.

Which are full laps and which are BtG ;)

The 8:38 was a full lap and was in my old car.

[Senninha]

Hi,

So Im now into my 4th yr of NSX ownership. A 3.2 Targa with 57k miles. Its had a well serviced history through 4 owners. Its been used to commute, to track to venture into Europe and for most of its life, its enjoyed covering Her Majesty's black top and swift rates of progress.

So whats the relevance of the above within this thread? I frequent the pages and threads of Pistonheads. I attend some of the show n shine brekkie meets. Never does one of these past without people wishing to know about the mysteries of the NSX (as you say, they are hard to find to get that test drive).

However, of more relevance to your concerns are the other PH events I enjoy. These are the ones that attract a variety of the modern machines you refer to on your N'Ring charts. These cars are driven by regular guys and girls who enjoy their motoring. These drives are across the average UK A or B roads, not nice smooth track surfaces (N'Ring excluded). To date, I have always exchanged comments with owners of all manor of modern machines from Italy or Germany. Most are amazed just how well my 'old' NSX can stay with them. However we all agree that braking technology has certainly moved on.

So how does all this address you concerns? It underlines what my friends above have also articulated. Modern cars, loaded with computers to keep them on the road, driven by huge horsepower to carry the extra weight, dont have the chassis balance, compliance or finesse that a well driven NSX can deliver its driver. It will soak up a lot more of the poor quality tarmac we all have to deal with then virtually any modern car, and usually leaves the driver looking far more relaxed and comfortably at the end of an interesting drive.

By comparison to the NSX, I drive an 18 month old Merc with sports rims, modern tyres, advanced ABS and sport computer for the suspension. Using the 'sport' facility does, IMO, disturb the balance of the car as it firms everything up to the point of making the car feel nervous, unsettled and more difficult to drive. In fact, it feels how the owners of the modern cars say their cars feel.

So as suggested, if the NSX really is on your potential ownership list, please put down the magazines, and go find one at a dealership for a drive. And if you cant find one just ask here as I know of one and I'm sure other members here can point you to dealer cars for that test drive you really do need to take. And please be sure to try it over all types of tarmac if possible.

Once you have done this, only then will you start to realise why we are so passionate about the NSX. If its not for you or doesn't excite you after the drive, then I hope the BS delivers what it delivers on paper. And if does, please report back as I'd be very interested in your running report.

Good luck and enjoy the test drives

regards, Paul

[marylebone]

Cheers. Well written. All I truly care about is that it doesn't drive noticeably worse than the other two (evo X, 55 BS) - if it were just for how the car looks, there's no doubt the NSX is the better of the three. Same goes for the BS, why would I want it if it drives worse? Neither Honda nor Mercedes have ever done anything for me, on the contrary, I have chosen to buy their specific products in a very price-competitive environment. So why not try them all and choose whichever you prefer, regardless of the brand - as Honda users you know that some people wouldn't get close to an NSX simply because of the brand issue.

[Papalazarou]

We're opening pandora's box if we get into modifications so let's just leave that...

I'm not after a jet fighter here but the lap time is that of Merc SL500 and Golf IV R32, and those are not exactly supercars as far as I'm aware. NSXs are not readily available for test drives and the N'ring figures are official times set by professional race drivers in a controlled environment, so I wouldn't readily dismiss these official figures as irrelevant. A few secs up and down doesn't matter, but the difference is quite considerable.

Bottom line is that you have to test drive the car yourself, fully agree, and sorry if I pissed you chaps off, just trying to be honest here. Really like the car but the hard fact is that it is slower, unless the test was carried with the handbrake engaged! It was a marvel when it appeared but let's not expect the unexpectable 20 years on.
?)

This forum has a pretty good spread of membership across the UK, so you shouldn't have a problem getting a test drive if you ask around.
However, the performance issues you mention makes me think that the NSX is probably not for you. As another member added, if you want something that's good on paper, a GTR is probably the answer.

TBH I think you need to properly read what people are trying to get across in their replies. The NSX has a strong following because it's a great car. No it's not as fast compared to modern stuff. But then nor are it's contemporaries; F355, 360, Porsche 964, 993, 996 and I don't see people scrapping them because they're not cutting edge anymore.

The bottom line is that the average NSX owner doesn't care what's faster and what's slower. They just enjoy a well sorted package that won't let them down and makes them feel good because they have something which feels special.

I had both an earlier 3.0 ltr car and a late 3.2 and they were both fantastic. personally, I'd go for a 3.2 but they're all good.

Cheers,


James.

[marylebone]

Thanks for the tips and good luck.

[simonprelude]

"...and it cost 70 grand, and no one is gonna pay that for a Honda. No matter how hard it tried, it was never a Ferrari, so it's really time this car was shuffled off to the Renault Alpine rest home for retired pleasant supercars, and Honda... move on, build something else. Step away from the NSX." - Top Gear (http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/r-shootout).

After speaking to the TG team then well.................. lol.

Don't forget, Hammond used to rave on about the 911 until he fell out with it and the same can be said about that with it being time to build something new, yes it has evolved but in reality it's still a squashed beetle...........

As for comparisons with Ferrari's etc again, if you say you haven't driven an NSX then how can you compare. There are quite a few of us on here who are or have been in a position to own pretty much anything they like and overall the NSX will still evoke something special. My particular car went to someone who was fed up of the reliability of Ferrari's and we're not talking about ageing 348's or even 355's.
The NSX is not going to inspire as much devotion as a prancing horse in most people, however it should certainly spend less time costing £100 plus an hour in the hands of a mechanic.

[Dragonlady]

Just my2p worth....

Evo is straight out of the window without a second glance, it's just a boy racer four door saloon to me that a bafoon could drive fast due to all the electronic aids. It's the same with the GTR, a numpty could drive it around a track faster than an NSX due to all the aids, if they get it wrong it sorts it all out for them.
That leaves the NSX and SLK BS.

Power isn't everthing, we've done the power car, and yes it's fun in a straight line, but it's not involving. Mash the pedal into the carpet and your eyeballs become part of the headrest. There is no unity with the car.

Ask yourself this. When you walk out of the front door in the morning and look at your car, does it give you a nice feeling inside, do you want to drive it and appreciate its beauty?

With the NSX the answer is yes. It is rare, beautiful, and is a dream to drive weather I'm doing 30mph or x mph on my favorite B road.

SLK? I don't even take a second glance at them as they are so common. Yes it maybe a Black Series, but so many people spec their SLK200's with alloys and body bits who knows what they are? AMG, BS, or just a 200 made to look like a whatever.

Just some food for thought, good look and get a test drive.

Regards Ian