Help please - car won't start!

[WhyOne?]

Hi all,

I collected Y1 from 6 weeks hibernation this morning.

Car had been in a garage for the 6 weeks, attached to a battery conditioner.

Started 1st time, on the button, absolutely no problems.

I went for a nice drive....~60 miles...and parked on the drive at home.

Car standing for ~3 hours.

I have just tried to move the car and she wont 'fire'. Plenty of life in the battery which turns the engine without any problems.

Can anyone suggest any likely causes / remedies I might try please?

[WhyOne?]

Just been out to try again, having left the car for ~20 mins.

All lights on dash do the normal things, but I cant hear the fuel pump priming.

Does the pump prime every time, or will the engine having been cranked 20 mins. ago stop it doing so now?

[nationofzeros]

Hi - sounds frustrating but hopefully something relatively straightforward

Those that know me will attest that I am the last person to advise on matters mechanical, but I wonder if this is the well known main relay failure - engine cranks but no spark / fuel supply, is, I believe the key symptom. Not sure if your fuel pump priming supports or confounds this theory

Mine suffers from this problem very intermittently and a replacement unit is on the to do list - a relatively reasonably priced component I believe

Kaz's long running NSX health check thread has a piece devoted to this topic - p17 I think

Over to those more knowledgeable on diagnostics

BR

Chris

[WhyOne?]

Hi Chris,

Appreciate your calm words - many thanks!

I am also 'challenged' when it comes to matters technical!

However reading around, it is sounding to me like a main relay problem. People also (on Prime) talk about a fuel pump relay....is this the same thing or a different 'box' altogether?

[WhyOne?]

Well, thanks to Kaz's great photo's & description, I now have Y1's main relay sat next to me on my desk!

I have spoken to my Honda dealer & they can see 1 showing in stock (in the European spares centre in Belgium). Given it is less than £100 I have ordered it. Should it prove not to be the issue, I am sure someone will buy it off me in the future.

I had a chat with my (very good) service manger and from the symptoms went straight to 2 (related) potential problems - the main relay or the alarm system playing up.

Any more comments and advice, most welcome!

[Hagasan]

Hi Chris,

Appreciate your calm words - many thanks!

I am also 'challenged' when it comes to matters technical!

However reading around, it is sounding to me like a main relay problem. People also (on Prime) talk about a fuel pump relay....is this the same thing or a different 'box' altogether?

Yes, same relay I believe but could also be the ignition switch.... Try giving the key a bit of a wiggle while cranking the engine...

[AR]

Have you tried tapping the main relay whilst in the car and cranking it?

Kind of like the old 1970s teles. :)

Cheers,

AR

[WhyOne?]

Hi Guys.

Yes, I have tried wiggling the ignition switch & beating-up the main relay (firm taps with a rubber mallet) to no avail. I am used to this from S2000 days - tapping the ECU in a similar manner appeared to be the approved way of resetting it!!! Did Honda ever make TV's??!??!

I have not, as you suggest Ary, tried tapping the main relay whilst cranking. But there is only me here at the moment & I am thinking this is a 2 person job!!!!

My lingering concern is that this is something alarm related. Not that the alarm has been playing-up or giving me reason for concern, just my default fatalist attitude to car problems!

[AR]

I have not, as you suggest Ary, tried tapping the main relay whilst cranking. But there is only me here at the moment & I am thinking this is a 2 person job!!!!


Take the top trim off turn at 45 degrees angle and tap/crank away!

I remember one of the many time I was working on mine and I was scratching my head at the fault...loose igniter ground. I doubt this is the case with yours, but not a bad idea to have a look.

[Hagasan]

Take the top trim off turn at 45 degrees angle and tap/crank away!

I remember one of the many time I was working on mine and I was scratching my head at the fault...loose igniter ground. I doubt this is the case with yours, but not a bad idea to have a look.


Don't have time to read all the thread and what you have tried but, have you gone through every relevant fuse or indeed checked all the fuses and possibly removed and re-inserted relays? Might be worth a try if you haven't just in case it's the basics playing up?!?!

[britlude]

does everything except fire-up..... sounds like the main relay to me...

[WhyOne?]

Yes, dash lights operate as normal, just no fuel pump noise.

Engine cranks fine, but doesn't fire.

[havoc]

Hagasan's idea is good idea Ian.

However, I don't think it's the alarm system (certainly not if you've got the Hamilton Palmer system - rounded-square key-fob with 2 rubber buttons side-by-side):-

Most after-fit immobilisers (which a lot of 90ss to early-00s era Honda ones were - dealer-fit H-P systems) fit in the system prior to the ignition, rather than at the fuel-pump. So if the car is cranking but not firing, that's not an alarm problem. Fuse or Main Relay are the obvious culprits, unless the fuel pump has suddenly died.


(I had my H-P alarm/immob fail on the S2000 - there was absolutely nothing - no crank at all. Had to be recovered by the RAC and the following week taken to an alarm specialist who ripped the damn system out of the car and replaced it with a Sigma piggy-back system (alarm only, no 2nd immobiliser as the S2000 has a chip-in-key so doesn't need a 2nd). Common fault on the pre-04 S2000s.)

[WhyOne?]

Hi Martin,

Agreed - I'll have a poke around the fuses tomorrow as hagasan suggested.

I appreciate your words of reassurance re. the alarm, but it is precisely the experience you had with your S which makes me dread the damned thing going wrong.

[Hagasan]

Yes, dash lights operate as normal, just no fuel pump noise.

Engine cranks fine, but doesn't fire.

I think you'll only really hear the full pump noise on priming on initial switch on as it build pressure. Susequent start attempts won't be heard as the fuel lines will be pressurised by then.....I think I am correct in this statement?

[paulius]

I had the same. It was main relay in mine.

[WhyOne?]

I think you'll only really hear the full pump noise on priming on initial switch on as it build pressure. Susequent start attempts won't be heard as the fuel lines will be pressurised by then.....I think I am correct in this statement?

This makes sense to me & what I was wondering yesterday afternoon......whether or not it is correct is another matter all together!

I will plug the main relay in again this evening, having checked the fuse, and see what happens.

Meanwhile, I am soon to be the recipient of the entire stock of these units held by Honda in Europe!!!

[simonprelude]

The NSX fuel pump should be heard everytime you turn the key to the second position. With the S2000 alarm, when it's gone the dash lights will illuminate but pressing the starter will give no cranking.
What might be worth doing is opening the relay and looking for the common dry joint problem, worth a bash with a soldering iron at least?

[WhyOne?]

The NSX fuel pump should be heard everytime you turn the key to the second position. With the S2000 alarm, when it's gone the dash lights will illuminate but pressing the starter will give no cranking.
What might be worth doing is opening the relay and looking for the common dry joint problem, worth a bash with a soldering iron at least?

Hi Simon,

Given I have a new relay on the way, I was wondering about re-melting some of the solder on the joints inside the box. I have zero experience of this sort of thing however (though, worryingly, I do own a soldering iron :D !)

If I open up the box containing the relay, is it obvious which connections need re-soldering?

[simonprelude]

If I open up the box containing the relay, is it obvious which connections need re-soldering?

It should be, they'll either be cracked on the joint or missing solder completely.

[WhyOne?]

It should be, they'll either be cracked on the joint or missing solder completely.

Hmmm.....in that case, odd!

All the soldered concections look absolutely fine.

[britlude]

on mine, the solder joints looked fine, but when you heat them up, it becomes apparent that they are no longer 'tinned' to the pins

they seem to corrode between the solder and the pin, eventually breaking the joint from within! run the soldering iron over them, just to make sure they are tinned... nothing to lose, everything to gain! I did mine, and no problems since (touch wood, etc!)

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

Hi, WhyOne and all.

When you first turn the IGN SW to 'ON' position, the ECU will trigger the Main Relay for 2.0sec to activate the Fuel Pump. Therefore, if you didn't hear this high pitch tone, then I'll first look into the Main Relay.

Any owners who visited my place for the Health Check Service were asked about the history of their Main Relay. If it was never replaced or not sure, I always recommend them to replace it with a new one and I'll re-solder the original one as an emergency spare so that it can save other owners.

I always carry my spare re-soldered Main Relay as well as the jumper wire for the Fuel Pump Resistor unit on the car.

If you are interested in the model year of your Main Relay, you can find it out by opening the Main Relay case and looking at the 4 digits on the two black Relays. It will be like ' xxyy ' where 'xx' is for the Year and probably week number as 'yy'.

If you just started to experience the very common issue of 'good cranking but no fire-up' at the engine, then you'll struggle to see any crack on the soldering joints. It also depends on the temperature of the circuit board.
Just re-solder all of them as you don't need high power soldering iron any way.

Make sure to order the correct version of the Main Relay. Although the circuit is the same, the bracket design is different between Non-DBW and DBW models. I have lots of them in my garage but already assigned for several owners....

Regards,
Kaz

[WhyOne?]

Many thanks for the helpful responses gents.

I will run a soldering iron over each of the joints & see if this has made any difference this evening. New relay is due with me Saturday morning. If I can coax the old one into life, I will do as Kaz suggests and carry it in the car as a spare.

I am sure everyone will be fascinated to know that the two relays in my 'box' were manufactured in the 4th & 10th weeks of 2001!

Best regards,

Ian
:)

[WhyOne?]

Whooo-hoooo!

Y1 lives!

With my never-used-before soldering iron, I simply melted the solder on of each of the joints on the back of the main relay circuit board, popped it back in the car and bingo....fuel pump works, car fires!

I'll put the new relay in when it arrives, keep the old one as a back-up, but I'm very happy to know what the problem was.

Many thanks to all for your help & advice.

[havoc]

Great news...and on your own too (well, a little advice from your favourite car club, of course! ;) ), which probably makes it twice as satisfying.

[TheSebringOne]

Well done! Great to hear your P & J is back to good health. :)

[mutley]

Fantastic little fix, and info for future reference.

Does anyone know the price of a new main relay? if not too expensive then I might purchase one "just in case"

Jim

[WhyOne?]

Hi Jim - I have bought a new main relay for my (DBW) 2001 car - cost from my local honda dealer £92 + VAT. Whilst a different part for earlier non-DBW cars, it is only the mounting bracket which differs, so price should be near-enough the same.

Honda Europe only had 1 in stock (now mine!) so I imagine it could easily be an 'on order' item.

By NSX standards, not an expensive part and is does seem to be a relatively weak point on the car. Worth have one on-the-shelf IMHO.

Thank heavens for the internet in general, and this forum in particular. There is no way I would have been able to sort this out anywhere near as cheaply (car would have had to have been trailered to Honda dealer) or efficiently, or, for that matter, with this amount of satisfaction.

Many thanks to all who helped.

:)

[NSXGB]

Glad you got it sorted Ian....I've not logged on for a while, would have helped you out...

Now, about that beer...

[WhyOne?]

Hi Simon,

Yes, all is well again (well, apart from most of the interior panels being in the dining room!)

I picked up the new main relay this morning - they were a bit bemused at the dealership when I pitched up in the NSX!.

Thanks for the offer of assistance - greatly appreciated. Hopefully it wont be needed, but another time perhaps.

As for beer - yes - good plan. How are you fixed next Thursday evening ~7ish?

[NSXGB]

Thurs & Fri I'm working till 7pm...Wednesday?

[AR]

Great news take care not to bend the tabs when putting the panesl back in.

[WhyOne?]

Thurs & Fri I'm working till 7pm...Wednesday?

Hi Simon - sorry, I am tied up at work until Thursday.

How are you fixed next week - Tuesday or Thursday are my best evenings?

[NSXGB]

Hi Simon - sorry, I am tied up at work until Thursday.

How are you fixed next week - Tuesday or Thursday are my best evenings?

Either one next week can be done...

[Nick Graves]

Fantastic little fix, and info for future reference.

Does anyone know the price of a new main relay? if not too expensive then I might purchase one "just in case"

Jim

More than a decent soldering iron!

Since this problem affects NSXs, Preludes & now ageing S2000s equally, I'm prepared...

[NSXGB]

Fantastic little fix, and info for future reference.

Does anyone know the price of a new main relay? if not too expensive then I might purchase one "just in case"

Jim
Jim, from the US they are about $85 for the non DBW version. As Nick points out though a soldering iron is much cheaper. Don't know whether it's a sensible idea to take it out every couple of years and sure up the soldered joints or whether that's just tempting fate?

[britlude]

i'm working on the principle that it took about 17 years for the solder joint to fail, i resoldered it, making sure the pins were well tinned ( desoldered, cleaned, tinned, cleaned, soldered!), so i'm ok til 2026! :)

(touch wood, etc, usual get out clauses apply!)