NSX Standard brakes ??

[simonprelude]

OK, I booked the car into Chiswick to have the brakes looked at as I am not 100% on their effectiveness.

I am used to an S2000 with standard rear disks and pads but with Spoon front discs and pads.

Basically the NSX takes a lot longer to stop, say from 100mph.

The garage took the car out today, and I don't expect them to have replicated 100mph stops, but nevertheless have said that they can't see any problem with the brakes.

Now after watching BMI and seeing how they thrash the NSX and state no brake fade and how good they are, I am more than a little worried.

Right, I know the NSX is heavier than the S2000, but the calipers are supposed to be better, yes I have uprated discs and pads on the S2000 as well. But there is currently no way I would take the NSX to a track such as Donington as I would not be confident that the brakes would actually stop me.

Brakes visibly seem to have lots of life left, both on discs and pads.

Discuss................

NB I don't want uprated brakes, just want the standard ones to work.

[Rob_Fenn]

I cannot fault the NSX for brake feel, that is an area where it excels. Clearly Honda spent a lot of time trying to make every interactive element just right...but performance on track in terms of outright stopping power and longevity isn't good though.

My Dad and I have been through countless discs and pads on track, which is why the NSX is getting the AP Racing upgrade. I am slightly concerned that on the road you are finding it an issue though, that shouldn't really happen and it hasn't been an issue on ours.

A VFM upgrade would be higher temp rated discs (i never found any) with some Ferodo pads, better brake fluid and braided hoses. It would probably work out cheaper than OEM prices too!

-Rob

[modarr]

I must say the standard brake package takes a while getting used to. I thought I had faulty brakes when I swapped my Caterham for the NSX. Turns out, they just need a bloody hard squeeze to get the best out of them. This gives the impression that they are about to fail but isn't so. The pedal travel is excessive and the standard fluid/pads pants.

you may possibly be used to more highly servoed barkes needing less effort. I came from non servo brakes and still found the NSX brakes disconcerting to begin with.

[710]

My brake story, maybe the info will help.
I bought the car with OK/good Honda discs. Nice and smooth, a little worn, no juddering, braked nicely. I took the car to our annual mountain run in France. After I learned the car, I started to push it and the brakes started to fade. I could make them fade on the downhill runs. The brakes started to judder. By then the fluid had probably boiled too so I bled them as best I could considering we were on holiday… Tyres are S03s so softish.
At home I checked the discs, they are warped (usually caused by too much heat). The calipers are ok, they seem to work equally.
I saw the prices of Honda discs, had to sit down. So I ordered cheap ones (and an extra set too) from some place in Britain (£27 each? Or £19. I forget now).
After thoroughly changing the fluid with new normal fluid, I took it to the mountains and the same thing happened. But not any worse than with the Honda discs.
I checked with the garage that serviced the car before I bought it, they fit only Honda stuff so I assume the first set of discs were Honda (is there a stamp or something so I can check?). The pads are Honda stock.
So my conclusion is that the discs are too small for the weight of the car under extreme use. Actually in my opinion, ANY car’s brakes are too small for extreme use, the Cosworth ones ended up in the bin so fast it was a blur. Absolutely useless. With the NSX, it’s not so bad, though, they are not absolutely useless, just a little under sized. And I still enjoy the car a lot, I haven’t even made the time to install the big disc set yet! So it’s not THAT bad. Just my experience.
Peter

[UltraViolet]

No idea what that post above has to do with this topic... but hey.....

Simon - I agree - the standard brakes on the NSX IMO are not sufficient. Even for fast road use they are not great. In fact I thought it was a commonly held accepted point about the car. I think much better pads would help, but I don't yet have the experience to qualify that statement (still on OEM). Also whether that would be fine for road but still insufficient for track, no idea - but I guess you have a fair old wait while the warrenty expires before that is an issue anyway.

[mcibuk]

I don't take my car onto a track but in fast road use i'm always left thinking that the brakes could be better - physically the discs just look too small for the size of wheels and the weight of car. I'm still awaiting a reasonable price upgrade development that uses a slightly bigger disc on the fronts - nothing seen so far.

I know it's "off topic" but Khalid why didn't you give me that price last month - i would have bought from you then - too late now:x

[swlabhot]

IMO the oem brakes are crap. I'm gonna try just upgrading to fast road pads at next change and I'm expecting the bite to improve considerably.

[markc]

Without boring everyone with tails from my Porsche days, this braking issue used to come up over and over again....

There are very few if any road cars that have sufficiently large braking capacity to handle extreme braking for extended periods like those on the race track or in exceptional road conditions such as descending a mountain pass at high speed.

For example my old 993 Carrera was fitted with 304mm front discs (280mm rear) and 4pot Brembo calipers all round in a car weighing 1375kgs ie larger brakes than the NSX with only marginally more weight. Opinion was fairly evenly split as to whether this was adequate for track use or not.

Even specialist stuff aimed at the trackday market, such as the original Carrera GT3, has been found wanting for brakes in these conditions.

Driving style may also exasperate the shortcomings of a brake system ie on a circuit the same lap time achieved using late, hard brake application will cause less brake problems than early, long brake application! Same energy but more “off time” to dissipate it.

By very modern standards, a stock NSX setup is similarly found wanting in these extreme circumstances but I would suggest that some simple and relatively low cost "upgrades" can be employed to ensure that braking is as effective as possible, to the point that an extremely costly disc/caliper/wheel upgrade is largely unnecessarily. Unless of course you've added more weight (unlikely) or power (possibly).

All starting with bog standard kit.... make sure it's fresh and in good condition. Discs should be well within spec for wear (thickness) and the vents should not be clogged or blocked. Pads should be less than 50% worn and fluid bled, idealy replaced, before every track day.

To try to avoid warping discs it’s best to warm them up and down gradually, so some medium braking effort stops prior to maximum attack and more importantly a warm down lap with very little braking so that excess heat doesn’t get trapped between pad and disc when you eventually stop (heat soak).

Next comes cooling.... effective braking is ALL about dissipating the huge amount of heat (energy) generated by the brakes.

Most high performance cars use some form of air deflector to channel cold air to the discs/calipers. The standard fit deflectors tend to be small, made of plastic and are sized to ensure that they don't make contact with the average bumpy public road. If you're going to use the car primarily on a smooth roads or circuits, you can go for much larger and more efficient air deflectors such as the ones fitted by Darren (ctrlaltdelboy) prior to his A/C radiator removal and fitment of full CF ducting and employ ducting to force air over and past the discs/calipers.

From reports on NSX Prime and Kevin and Darren here, it seems that stock Honda discs and pads are about as good as it gets unless you are prepared to make significant compromises for road use (noise) or wear rates.

I’ve not had any problems on the road yet but am yet to take in any mountain passes and I guess I’ll find out about the on-track performance at Donington on the 14th Oct.

There's a good explanation of braking technology and the thermodynamics involved here if you're interested.... http://www.carbibles.com/brake_bible.html

Cheers

Mark

[markc]

This is a very good article with some actual temperature measurement taken to support the tests as well...

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/info/real-world-brake-upgrades/index.html

[trackdemon]

Driving style may also exasperate the shortcomings of a brake system ie on a circuit the same lap time achieved using late, hard brake application will cause less brake problems than early, long brake application! Same energy but more “off time” to dissipate it.

Next comes cooling.... effective braking is ALL about dissipating the huge amount of heat (energy) generated by the brakes.


Sorry Mark, but I'll have to take issue with the comment about driving style - arriving at a corner and stamping on the brakes hard and late is a surefire way to destroy road car brakes in short order. Firstly, you're introducing a huge amount of thermal shock which road car brakes are simply not designed to cope with, a multitude of things can happen from cracking the disks to causing the pad stucture to breakdown ("normal" pad material is essentially held together with high temp bonding agent which can melt in extremis and build a layer of fluid between pad & disk).
Also, by using "maximum" braking force you are actually putting much higher peak energy through your disks & pads which will exacerbate wear and boil the fluid much quicker. I've driven my NSX very hard on track (trying to keep up with a much faster car :D) using as much braking as I dare and generally cannot get any more than 3 "proper" laps out of it before backing off to cool the brakes.
Conversely, by applying the brakes early but gently I can run for 1 hour without any problems - I basically double my braking distance, applying the brakes very smoothly and progressively building the brake force until I get to my turn in point. Ultimately its a little slower over a lap, but it makes the brakes last several trackdays instead of 1......

The NSX is definitely defficient in the cooling area, whose idea it was to cover the caliper with silly plastic "protectors" which help to reduce airflow through the system obviously hadn't thought of track driving.... and easy mod, so ditch those if you haven't already!

[markc]

Hi Darren, I'm not sure were actually in agreement here...

Firstly, your quite right about thermal shock which is why you need to warm the discs up before applying max braking. (This is the usual cause of warped or cracked discs.) Thereafter provided you have sufficient cooling capacity so that the system doesn't get overwhelmed, leading to boiled fluid and or the pad breakdown yo describe, you should be alright.

I tried a few differant types of pads in my 993 (Mintex 1144, EBC Greenstuff, Porterfield Orange) and to be honest the factory fits were virtually as good as anything and less noisy on the road than all of them. From what I've read it's a similar story for the NSX, BUT I have no actual experience.

More "off time" while setting EXACTLY the same lap time ie same energy and therefore heat to disapate, should allow the system to cool better.

I agree you don't have to back off your braking by much to stop the brakes being overwhelmed but it will make for slower laps and therefore you're disapating less energy (heat) so the system will last longer.

I've got the larger Dali Aluminum Air defectors on the way and will be removing the splash shields as well in prep for Donington. Fresh factory pads and new fluid will go in as well next weekend so I'll have done all the easy stuff. My '97 has the slightly larger discs which will help as well.

I won't be going mad (probably) anyway so don't expect to have too many problems and if it rains (also probably) overheating the brakes definately won't be as issue.

I'm really looking forward to it.

Cheers

Mark

[ctrlaltdelboy]

someone call my name?

take a look here (http://nsxcb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=571) for a relatively simple but extremely effective solution to high brake temps.

marc, look forward to seeing you at Donington on the 14th and showing you the details in person.

[modarr]

The best braking you'll get from a stock caliper /disc set-up on the NSX will be using Mintex 1155 or equivalent. The on road use is totally acceptable, no noise issues and the car stops well enough to make trackday instructors comment on how good the brakes are, even after having tried Kevin's upgraded set-up back to back. Don't get scared about brakes not working when cold.........they are fine even in Winter unless you drive like a fool seconds after starting the engine.

Mintex 1144 and anything else is poo in comparison. Only downside is the disc wear. Pads however last years.

[markc]

Darren you'll be at Donington on the 14th Oct.... Excellent :D

Two NSX's in the same place at the same time pretty much qualifies as an official meeting 8)

Mark

[Ciaran]

Everyone seems to have a slightly different "Brake" experience...

I got my 96 T with 80K + and not surprisingly, after one track day had brake judder with fade, which was a bit scary, . Got a price from Honda for OEM disc's and I had to presumed that they didn't do replacement disc's but instead replaced the entire corner!!!! ....Something like Eur300 per corner.

So I got a set of drilled and slotted disc's from Mark in Dali, OEM size, just with more ventilation, approx $500 for the set. Took the stone guards off the front completely, and changed the fluid for good quality (can't remember the brand) DOT 4 fluid. Three track days on and all is well. Yes you do need much more brake pressure than seems normal, just try to lock up the fronts at speed and see how hard it is. It also means you can brake almost into the apex, which I find very un-natural and mentally hard to do, but it does allow for a smoother and longer braking effort without sacrificing total corner speed.

It may be the wrong tread, but two small tips for track day virgins (my fifth is due on Oct 16th & I still need to do this!! :roll: ) get some white sticky tape, one piece in the centre of the steering wheel with "TCS OFF", and one on the hand brake with "P... OFF" ...never put the handbrake on when you come back in off the track, it's a sure fire way to warp the rears.

Cheers

[dave100]

I had Ferodo DS2500s on my Evo and they were excellent. Didnt try the M1155s but i think v similar performance iirc

[Clive]

I read all of this with interest but am no further forward! Essentially, I seem to recall that my first 3.0 and my 3.2 had very good brakes - certainly in normal driving conditions they had good feel and I had no fear of not being able to stop. I now come to my current 3.0, and the brakes do not fill me with confidence on the road at all. There is retardation obviously, but there is a need for a hard shove if you want to stop quickly from speed. I can't recall that being nceessary with my previous cars. There are probably two reasons for this. First, my last car was a BMW M Coupe which, although maligned in the press for having poor track brakes, had immense brakes for the road. You only had to twiddle your toes and it would stop dead. Over-servoed in my opinion actually - there was little scope for modulation. The other reason is that my current NSX has only travelled 8000 miles in nine years (previous owner not me!) and I'm wondering if the pads have gone a bit wooden with a lack of use. It wouldn't surprise me if they had glazed or something. If new pads are required are OEM best for road use (only)? Ta. Clive

[ctrlaltdelboy]

brake lines could be your problem - a set of stainless lines is a modest investment, potentially a solution to your lack of braking power and worth doing anyway?

here's some (http://daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=555)

[Kevin]

I'm starting to think that brake systems must lose performance with age, and/or heavy use.

My CRV which I just got, has rotors the same size as the NSX. But as it hasn't been driven hard (cos you can't!), the brakes are great. Much better bite than the NSX ever had, and this thing has drums on the rear.

I haven't heard of anyone rebuilding their calipers. Maybe this should be looked into, as well as just changing pads and discs. I rebuilt the calipers on another car I had and this did improve things.

[ctrlaltdelboy]

As Simon will know, I warped my front discs at Donington earlier this month and need replacements.

since the Black Diamond grooved ones I had on for the last 2 years seemed to do so well I have gone for these again.

I got them for £168 inc vat & delivery - link below

www.performancecentre.co.uk (http://www.performancecentre.co.uk/p/sv_pl.asp?VC=HNNSX01&PTC=BRB01)

they do either drilled, grooved or both for either front or rear.

that's all folks - just thought I'd let you know!

[AR]

How about pads Darren?

Cheers

AR

[ctrlaltdelboy]

I'm using Pagid yellows, but these are a (very) endurance pad and probably not good for the road as they'll never get hot enough to do their stuff.

the pads cost more than the discs.

I think there's some road pad discussion elsewhere around here already.

[simonprelude]

Anyone know the differences between the pre and post 98 discs ??

Mine is a 97 3.2 so would imagine it would have the post 98 option ????

[Kevin]

3.2l cars have larger discs. 298/303mm compared to 280 for the earliers ones. There are also some slight difference in piston sizes, resulting in a (fractionally) more rearward bias.

[Rob_Fenn]

I think the NSX's brake set up is fine for road use really, it sounds like your car has simply been left around to long. You may as well upgrade your brake fluid and brake lines as it will be of benefit anyway. A very cheap mod too...

We picked my dad's NSX up from AP Racing today. Wow! Pics coming soon :D

[Kevin]

It appears that Dali Racing have complete their mini-upgrade. It uses standard size rotors + new calipers. The kit fits under the standard wheels, so no need to change wheels as well. Maybe this would help solve your problems?

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=1865

[modarr]

Do you think this is likely to reduce fade and warpage on track?

Standard size discs will get just as hot with similar stopping power but with ? improved feel and pressure?

What do you think?

[Kevin]

He doesn't say anything about performance as tested, but I shall take an educated guess and say;

1. The discs are slotted to clean pad faces, and let gas escape etc
2. The caliper having pistons on both sides mean the back is open, allowing a bit more ventilation
3. Piston area slightly bigger, increasing clamping force
4. Pistons being on both sides, mean no twisting of the caliper, leading to inefficiency.
5. Ali calipers will transfer heat away quicker
6. Calipers will be lighter than cast iron ones
7. Two piece rotors expand nicely and shouldn't warp 'so much'


I agree that without an increase in rotor diameter, some more benefits are not realised, but, if you want to retain standard wheel sizes, you don't really get an option.

The rotors have been around for a while now, and some people have reported they perform pretty well.

[ctrlaltdelboy]

surely these are 298mm disks as per 1997+ models?

this is a diameter increase of 6.4% over the 282mm disks on 1991-1996 cars

[Kevin]

Yes the rotors are a bit bigger. Forgot that bit.

[Nick Graves]

One of my (S2000!) fronts was partially seized, from track (ab)-use.

You could try squeezing the pistons right in, see if that improves response.

Another S2000 tip for better cooling is to duct the bumper vents to the brakes!

Actually, these cars have bloody fantastic brakes. What has happened is that tyre grip has improved immensely in recent years.

Of course, we just use up that extra margin of safety for fun and boil the anchors!

[ctrlaltdelboy]

Another S2000 tip for better cooling is to duct the bumper vents to the brakes!
great idea - here's how to do it (http://nsxcb.co.uk/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=571)

[modarr]

surely these are 298mm disks as per 1997+ models?

this is a diameter increase of 6.4% over the 282mm disks on 1991-1996 cars

Cool, you're right so its worthwhile for pre '97 cars for sure.

May take a look next year.

[BabyNSX]

i have some performance front pads in the for sale section of this forum

[NSXGOD]

surely these are 298mm disks as per 1997+ models?

this is a diameter increase of 6.4% over the 282mm disks on 1991-1996 cars

Cool, you're right so its worthwhile for pre '97 cars for sure.

May take a look next year.

Actually it is "worthwhile" (JMO-YOMV) in more than one sense for even the newer cars since you reduce the unsprung weight on each front wheel by 9.42 lbs (4.28 kg) and the brake rotors are the best you can get for the OEM size. They have several unique design features that make them perform well at the track. (discussed at length on the website)

We have the rear kit dialed now finally, and will have fitment pix and etc posted this Weds. I think it saves >10lbs over the stock setup on each rear wheel - no hand brake solution at the moment though.

For you guys interested in track use, where lighter is usually better, you can reduce the cars weight by almost -40Kg without loosing the stereo or A/C etc just by swapping out the following when the OEM parts need replacing:

1) the OEM brakes for our front and rear brake kit (-17.65Kg)
2) the OEM suspension for a TEIN RA or RE (-12.73Kg)
3) the OEM 16/17 wheels for a set of the Enkei RPF1 in 17/18 (-3.13Kg) if you keep to the OEM wheel sizes you will save even more weight and $.
4) the OEM 5speed clutch for an RPS Clutch (-4.45Kg) [6speeds -9Kg]

Those of you that are further inclined (or crazed) can get a smaller battery and a single pane divider window, headers, Ti exhaust etc and end up at -100Kg like I did.

It's all good. :mrgreen:

[modarr]

hey Mark,

The greatest weight loss will come from the owners wallet, probably take the weight of the car down below a ton, after having spent as much wonga ( $ to you ) as you seem to be advocating. Selling a couple of internal organs will also help shave those tenths off the lap times and pay for your stuff too.

Got a buyer for a lung? Trade for the uprated brakes perhaps?

Mo :wink:

[NSXGOD]

hey Mark,

The greatest weight loss will come from the owners wallet, probably take the weight of the car down below a ton, after having spent as much wonga ( $ to you ) as you seem to be advocating. Selling a couple of internal organs will also help shave those tenths off the lap times and pay for your stuff too.

Got a buyer for a lung? Trade for the uprated brakes perhaps?

Mo :wink:

It all depends on what you want to do - I read lots of whining in the various forums about what the car does not do as well as some other cars, (like accelerate or stop) and you might note I suggested replacing with the lighter parts as the OEM ones get old and need replacement anyway so that the funds are not spent before they "need" to be.

Last time I weighed my Visa card I think it was about 10 grams :mrgreen:

You have all heard the old one:

"Speed costs money - how fast do you want to go?"

it applies to the NSX more than to any other car I've owned.

I'm going back into the garage.

[Senninha]

I think it was Rob that posted the footage of Senna putting a white NSX through its pace's whilst wearing loafers a little while back :) .

We could all spend a lot of money trying to make the NSX go faster, but until 'we' can learn to go faster, all the mods will be expensive.

Spend your money wisely and get some good advanced driver training for the road and if so inclined, the track.

That way both you and your NSX will be faster :wink: .

[Rob_Fenn]

I could not agree more strongly. I have learnt so much from our driving instructor. Looking back at my first every track day (in a 75bhp Clio!) i could cry, i was a joke.

It has also left me realising how much there is still to learn, i will never forget our instructor (Roberto Giordanelli) hunting down another instructor in a Ferrari 360 Challenge Racer in a completely stock NSX. Awe inspiring. It has only driven me to drive and learn more.

I have always been advised to learn how to drive before modifying. Stiffening up the NSX especially only makes it less forgiving at a faster limit. If you're going to spin, or even crash, best it's as slow as possible :lol:

-Rob