NSX vs R8

[jaytip]

Why did the NSX fail (from a marketing perspective) and the R8 didn't?

There are lot's of similarities between the two cars,
the company's first supercars,
everyday usability/reliabilty,
matching or bettering the opposition,etc,etc.

Yet the R8 is a far bigger sales success than the NSX ever was.Why is that?

Discuss.

[WhyOne?]

A more acceptable badge.

People were already used to paying £50k+ for performance / luxury Audi's.

You wouldn't be mat by indifference / laughter at the golf club pitching up in an R8.

[Sudesh]

Could it just be a simple case of there are more wealthy people now than back in the day? Also more petrol heads, a better understanding of cars, better finance deals with service packages and insurance became more accessible etc.

Back when the NSX was introduced there were very few "everyday" manufacturers making a supercar to rival ferrari, porsche etc and I guess most couldnt see past paying the £50/60K price tag for a Honda.

For someone to get anything close to a supercar/hypercar today new, will pay well above £100k plus! So the R8 starting from £80 something, is probably not bad value, although the prices do rise to around £115k

[JQD84983]

My view is that with a bigger dealer network and more readily available demonstrators people have a chance to try before they buy. Plus there is dealer stock out there where as the NSX was made to order more or less.

Most people with 80K to blow want the car ASAP and don't want to wait.

I do agree the badge plays a part as well. 80K on an Audi sounds better that 80K on a Honda to most badge conscious folk.

[TheSebringOne]

Mainly badge snobbery, but also the fact when the NSX came out it was £55K in 90/91, the next most expensive was a Legend probably below half the price. So theres a massive gap even thought the NSX was the flag ship. Then prices went up to £70K for the first NA2 coupe and nearly £77K for targa and people couldn't get their heads around this and buy a Porsche instead. They did try to address the price different when the 02+ NA2 came out by dropping the price by £10K.

[greenberet]

Yet the R8 is a far bigger sales success than the NSX ever was.

I don’t know what the current production numbers of the R8 are, but last year the German magazine Auto Bild Sportscars stated that Audi produced 7800 R8s to date and that production fell from about 25 cars per day when it was introduced in 2006 down to only 2 per day in 2009. That development of production numbers despite good reviews in car magazines sounds very familiar.

It will be interesting what the V10 and the convertible do for sales. In the May 7, 2010 edition of Auto Bild, they mention that German Audi dealers are offering R8 V10 convertibles at EUR 15 000 below the list price in order to generate sales.

[Nick Graves]

Marketing.

Audi is the ultimate "Emperor's new clothes" piece of branding. Probably that it shares its plank with a Lambo helps too.

The poor NSX doesn't even know if it's a Honda or a bloody Accurist...

[eclipse1501]

IMHO apart from being a very good car (according to pundits) Audi already had generations of road going sports car customers (Quattro right through to the TT) and all willing or waiting to sample an R8 - VW buyers would probably also migrate - whereas the NSX arrived on the scene with a bang as a very much "one of a kind" platform for Honda.

[greenberet]

If the production numbers from Auto Bild and Macs-Tokyo are correct, the NSX was more of a sales success than the R8 is.

In its first full year of production, 6514 NSX were produced according to Macs-Tokyo. Assuming the factory was operating 5 days per week, 52 weeks per year, that gives an average of 25 NSX built per day in 1991. Just like the Audi R8 when it was introduced.

However, whereas R8 production fell to only 2 cars per day in its third year, NSX production was still going comparatively strong at 5 cars per day in its third full year. It wasn’t until its 8th full year that NSX production fell to an average of 2 cars per day.

The R8 is newer and in the press a lot more than our cars, but so far it seems to be less of a sales success than the NSX was, if the data from Auto Bild and Macs-Tokyo are correct.

Instead of discussing why the R8 is a success and the NSX wasn't, we could discuss why neither R8 nor NSX managed to capture much market share in the exotic sports car market.

[jaytip]

Instead of discussing why the R8 is a success and the NSX wasn't, we could discuss why neither R8 nor NSX managed to capture much market share in the exotic sports car market.
I never said the NSX wasn't a success-it's a fabulous car.I said from a marketing point of view.
And i firmly believe that the R8 will sell in far greater numbers than the NSX.When you talk of orders being down to 2 cars per day for the R8,let's not forget we are in the middle of a global recession and have been for about 2 years.EVERY manufacturer has struggled.

[greenberet]

I should have been more careful when formulating the first part of that sentence. Yes - you said:

Why did the NSX fail (from a marketing perspective) and the R8 didn't?
If you firmly believe that the R8 will sell in far greater numbers than the NSX – we’ll see. So far, it seems that the NSX has been selling in greater numbers than the R8. And if I remember correctly, the NSX was also launched in a recession. I have the feeling that the R8 will parallel the NSX not only in the points you listed in the first post, but also in sales.

What will be interesting is how the V10 and cabriolet sell. Maybe we can infer from that how NSX sales would have held up if Honda had installed an engine larger than a 3.2 or developed a full convertible.

[goldnsx]

The product life cycle speaks against the R8 being sold more than the NSX. Today, there are a lot more reliable supercars on the market than 1991. A Lambo seems to be a technically perfect substitute for an R8. Audi doesn't care if it sells this or that.
The VW group produced several flops like the VW Phaeton in the past. Having so many badges it's not essential for them, they can cope with it. They just get a big hammer, change the shape and finally the badge and sell it for a completely differnt car. :laugh:

[Nick Graves]

That's the danger of taking internet facts at face value; given that sales volumes are far higher today and that there are the usual four hundred pointless versions, if the R8 is only selling in NSX numbers, it sounds like an epic fail. Plank-sharing with Lambo notwithstanding.

Given in the early years, the NSX exceeded expectations and only then dwindled until the -T was launched. It picked up again at NA2 time, but Honda had lost the momentum by then.

I cannot help feeling that more positive marketing ought to have kept the forgotten NSX better in the limelight.

It's the same story as the X1/9; volume companies cannot understand how to make penny numbers add up and the accountants decide the whole exercise is a CWOT. When actually it isn't. Perhaps that will be Audi's success.

[Chris B N]

Do not forget the relative value of money
When bought new my 97 UK car (96 model) an F Matic T was almost £78 K
about the same as an averaged price 4 Bed detached house in Sheffield. Today that same house is knocking on the door of £250K. Salaries are also much nearer the price of an R8 today than they were to the price of an NSX at least until the price drop that came with the face lift.
so in many respects difficult to compare the NSX and R8 in this discussion,
in terms of cost/ value etc. We should just acknowledge that they are both
b----- good cars.

[goldnsx]

One thing to remember is that the depreciation of an R8 is high, very high actually. Three years old cars can be bought for about 60% of their list price. If the car is traded in at the dealer I'd say that customers only get 50% back. I don't recall that high depreciation rates of the NSX in it's first years. Even 20 years later most asking prices are quite steep for an 'old' car like this.

[TheSebringOne]

Nick, around 140,000 X1/9s were sold compared to about 18,000 NSX, even though prices were at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

I think when my X1/9 was new it as about £10-12K in 1988?

[NoelWatson]

One thing to remember is that the depreciation of an R8 is high, very high actually. Three years old cars can be bought for about 60% of their list price. If the car is traded in at the dealer I'd say that customers only get 50% back. I don't recall that high depreciation rates of the NSX in it's first years. Even 20 years later most asking prices are quite steep for an 'old' car like this.

Is that still the case now that the Governments have created inflation? Cheapest R8 is around 60k, and weren't they 76k new?

[Papalazarou]

More like £96k.

Cheers,

James

[NoelWatson]

More like £96k.

Cheers,

James


http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/used-prices/Valuation.aspx?deriv=35596&plate=84#amount=50000&years=3

£77k according to Parkers - or are you saying they were typically specced up with 20ks worth of options?

[NSX 2000]

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/used-prices/Valuation.aspx?deriv=35596&plate=84#amount=50000&years=3

£77k according to Parkers - or are you saying they were typically specced up with 20ks worth of options?

It might not be £20k but you were lucky to walk out of a dealer with any change from £85k, after adding a couple of options.

Didn't you have this experiance when looking at a Cayman?

[NoelWatson]

Didn't you have this experiance when looking at a Cayman?

Yes. List was ~45k, but easily saw it jump to 55k. Engine coking is a no cost option.

[greenberet]

From 1989 to 1994, Ferrari built 8,720 348s, at the time its best selling model to date, and then replaced it with the 355.
From 1990 to 1995, Honda built 14,576 NSXs.
From 1989 to 1994, Porsche built 62,172 911s (964 series) and then replaced it with the 993.

Whether the NSX was a sales success or not, at least in its first five years of production, depends on how you look at it.

Regarding price, when introduced those cars had the following list prices in Germany: Porsche Carrera 2 103,500 DM, NSX 130,000 DM, Ferrari 348tb 165,000 DM. Accounting for inflation, that equals the following in 2010 Euros: Porsche 964 78,500 EUR, Honda NSX 96,000 EUR, Ferrari 348 125,000 EUR.

Currently, the list price for a new 911 is 84,700 EUR in Germany, it's 109,100 for an Audi R8, and 194,000 EUR for a Ferrari 458. The R8 and the NSX really are positioned very similarly in the marketplace. We’ll see whether R8 sales levels increase to match NSX sales levels.

[havoc]

Interesting info Greenberet!

I think people in the UK consider the NSX to be a sales failure because it was in this country. They ignore the huge (and more egalitarian) market that is the USA, and the big domestic *** market for the car.

On reflection, and considering how 'big' the up-to-£100k car market has become (both in terms of # of competitors and the actual volumes vis-a-vis 15 years ago), that the R8 is holding it's own but certainly isn't doing proportionately better than the NSX.


In the current climate and if I was in that market, I'd probably be considering that new Morgan - something individual, gorgeous, and with a sonorous V8! Either that or a Wiesmann...

[Nick Graves]

Nick, around 140,000 X1/9s were sold compared to about 18,000 NSX, even though prices were at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

I think when my X1/9 was new it as about £10-12K in 1988?

About right - mine was just over ten in '89.

Because of that and FIAT's obssession with IVECO and million-plus car production runs, it was considered the equivalent of 18,000 NSXs and tragically underdeveloped. Needless to say, I replaced it with an MX-5 in 1992 and that's another story...

[Nick Graves]

Yes. List was ~45k, but easily saw it jump to 55k. Engine coking is a no cost option.

:D

I was gonna mention that!

I'm not going to blame Audi entirely for it; what's the point of buying a car that powerful if you're not gonna thrash it a bit? Well, a lot? Might as well get a Golf GTi like all the other Estate Agents...

[goldnsx]

Is that still the case now that the Governments have created inflation? Cheapest R8 is around 60k, and weren't they 76k new?
We didn't have big inflation here. the price level is very, very stable.
I had look at the market value on continental Europe. In Switzerland, SFR 200k new, 3 years old, 10-20k miles, SFR 1110-120k now. And I think these are not the last prices if someone is willing to deal hard. http://www.autoscout24.ch/AS24Web/List.aspx?wl=1&lng=ger&from=Default&zipcountry=CH&make=9&modellike=r8&cur=CHFtopl&total=65&eftotal=65&sort=price&carsperpage=
Their actual spider model goes up to nearly SFR 300k.
In Germany, three years old models start from EUR 70k.

[TheSebringOne]

A guy I know whose a saleman for Audi, states alot of second hand R8s are going abroad due to the exchange rates, that was about 2-3 months ago.