Porsche Owner admits NSX is quicker

[sassthathoopie]

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=891032&d=11185.20419&nmt=

Interesting thread in progress here; A collector of garage queen 930/964 turbos says his NSX is quicker than both his Porsches...

[nakamichi]

Wonder if it is the same Rocco that posts on here?

[havoc]

Almost certainly the same chap.

And I'd take that with a small pinch of salt - they're probably very close, real-world, but no more than that - I had a brief drive with an E46 M3 cabrio along a couple of dual-carriageways, and it all depended on who got the quicker foot on the throttle. That's got ~60bhp more but ~250kg more too (still higher bhp/tonne).

964t will be similar weight and frontal-area to the NSX, and has optimal weight-distribution. And a thicker mid-range.

[AR]

Almost certainly the same chap.

And I'd take that with a small pinch of salt - they're probably very close, real-world, but no more than that - I had a brief drive with an E46 M3 cabrio along a couple of dual-carriageways, and it all depended on who got the quicker foot on the throttle. That's got ~60bhp more but ~250kg more too (still higher bhp/tonne).

964t will be similar weight and frontal-area to the NSX, and has optimal weight-distribution. And a thicker mid-range.

Yours is a 3.0 and Rocco is a 3.2 big difference in stock form.

[Senninha]

.....A collector of garage queen 930/964 turbos says his NSX is quicker than both his Porsches...

And mines a real Type R .... :rolleyes:

[NoelWatson]

Yours is a 3.0 and Rocco is a 3.2 big difference in stock form.

A 3.2 is slower than a E46 M3 hard top

[AR]

Not according to them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhEcGK_WnUM

I can tell you that a 1210KG 1993 NA1 I/H/E is Faster than an E46M3.

[Sudesh]

Not according to them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhEcGK_WnUM

I can tell you that a 1210KG 1993 NA1 I/H/E is Faster than an E46M3.

I agree! My own car quicker than and E46 M3 and my brothers 3.6 996 porsche.

[TheSebringOne]

Sudesh, interesting that its quicker than a 996 since whenever I've read car comparisons in past, the 996 is always quicker? Think 0-60 is 4.6 ?

[NoelWatson]

I agree! My own car quicker than and E46 M3 and my brothers 3.6 996 porsche.

I was talking about standard cars, not those with >320bhp

[NoelWatson]

Not according to them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhEcGK_WnUM

I can tell you that a 1210KG 1993 NA1 I/H/E is Faster than an E46M3.

Above 100mph? And I very much doubt a targa will do 0-60 in 4.6s

[AR]

Above 100mph? And I very much doubt a targa will do 0-60 in 4.6s

Is that speaking from experience LOL :)

[markc]

A 3.2 is slower than a E46 M3 hard top

Very, very little in it as several skirmishes (on both road and track) have shown me. Same goes for a Z4M, Caymen S and 996/997 (non GT3/Turbo). The power to weight ratios are close enough that all of them perform very similarly.


I can tell you that a 1210KG 1993 NA1 I/H/E is Faster than an E46M3.

So, pro-rata, a 1400KG E46M3 will redress the performance balance :P

Back to standard examples, a 3.2Ltr 6spd NSX will probably out run a 930T with it's 4spd g'box and old school laggy motor but I'd expect a 964T (3.3Ltr) to be pretty close. One of the late 3.6Ltr 964T's (380hp), one of my favourite Porkers, will murder a stock NSX in a straight line.

Cheers

Mark

[Papalazarou]

Would a pair of ferrets and a polecat take a badger?

Cheers,


James

[havoc]

The power to weight ratios are close enough that all of them perform very similarly.

Agreed. In the real-world you need a substantial difference in power-to-weight to give a noticeable difference in performance, and even then little stuff like reaction times and mechanical sympathy (not forcing-through a gearchange, not hitting the rev-limiter, not dumping the clutch) will have a noticeable impact.

At the 200+bhp/tonne level, IMHO stuff like throttle-response, power-delivery and engine sound are more important than outright numbers - these are ALL "real-world quick" cars.

[Senninha]

Sudesh, interesting that its quicker than a 996 since whenever I've read car comparisons in past, the 996 is always quicker? Think 0-60 is 4.6 ?

Which also goes to prove that going quicker is easy when you've been on a diet ... :)

[AR]

Paul ( S2 ) that is unless one is on a Seefood diet :)

http://www.surfersam.com/funny-pictures/funny-pictures-diet-man.jpg

My NSX driven by you will be really, really FAST. :)

[NSX 2000]

Would a pair of ferrets and a polecat take a badger?

Cheers,


James

I would put my money on the ferrets and polecat, but as badgers are a protected species (a bit like our NSX's) we can't find out.

Any way I had race with a Bugatti the other day and he didn't get past untill we hit 200mph :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Paul

[AR]

I would put my money on the ferrets and polecat, but as badgers are a protected species (a bit like our NSX's) we can't find out.

Any way I had race with a Bugatti the other day and he didn't get past untill we hit 200mph :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Paul

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3153/2353066362_9f40b98c39.jpg

[Sudesh]

Well I'm only 9 1/2 stone, and like to say athletic build lol. So that coupled with my cars diet and being JDM, makes its quite sharp.



Sudesh, interesting that its quicker than a 996 since whenever I've read car comparisons in past, the 996 is always quicker? Think 0-60 is 4.6 ?


Which also goes to prove that going quicker is easy when you've been on a diet ... :)

[Silver Surfer]

That's why you need FI...just to be sure!! ;)

SS

[rocco1]

Hello guys,yes its me on the other forum.Let me make it clear i have not one but two Porsche's 964 3.3t,one which is standard and the other has around 400bhp.As you guys are already aware i am also a proud owner of the NSX 3.2 I live in the real world and have both cars to hand,my NSX will nail the standard 964t and will keep up with the 400bhp porker i have,so please dont look at mags and look at the figures and argue with me,i have both and tested them both,fact my NSX standard is quicker than a standard 964 3.3t,The End .And being NSX fans you guys should be happy,i am!

[Silver Surfer]

hello guys,yes its me on the other forum.let me make it clear i have not one but two porsche's 964 3.3t,one which is standard and the other has around 400bhp.as you guys are already aware i am also a proud owner of the nsx 3.2 i live in the real world and have both cars to hand,my nsx will nail the standard 964t and will keep up with the 400bhp porker i have,so please dont look at mags and look at the figures and argue with me,i have both and tested them both,fact my nsx standard is quicker than a standard 964 3.3t,the end .and being nsx fans you guys should be happy,i am!

:):):)

ss

[AR]

I don't disagree Rocco I supported your post on PH. :) But as supported by EWAG and empirical data the NSX deceives and slays more powerful cars.

[rocco1]

I don't disagree Rocco I supported your post on PH. :) But as supported by EWAG and empirical data the NSX deceives and slays more powerful cars.
Spot on! but people will not have it!

[NoelWatson]

Very, very little in it as several skirmishes (on both road and track) have shown me. Same goes for a Z4M, Caymen S and 996/997 (non GT3/Turbo). The power to weight ratios are close enough that all of them perform very similarly.



The 997s absolutely nail us at Vmax - they are doing 10-15 mph quicker than us through timing beams.

[NSX 2000]

The 997s absolutely nail us at Vmax - they are doing 10-15 mph quicker than us through timing beams.

To be fair Noel I get the impression that all the cars (at VMAX) have been tweaked in one way or another, BMW's and Merc's with their limiters removed, RS4's with the boost turned right up etc etc. I think you, I, the guy with BMW M3 Bread van, M3 E90, and the Lotus Carlton were the only people to have not had their ECU played with. I wouldn't swear even the lambo's and Fezza's were stock :dunno:

With the German cars it is so cheap to have them chipped:(

Paul.

[rocco1]

The 997s absolutely nail us at Vmax - they are doing 10-15 mph quicker than us through timing beams.
Guys i said 964t 3.3, The NSX wouldnt stand a chance against my previous 996 and 997t.

[markc]

This started out as a quite a sensible discussion about the relative performance of some modern iconic cars in their STANDARD form which descended into one of adding power and loosing weight. Apparently if you add power and/or reduce weight you go faster... well no sh!t Sherlock :)

Personally I think that, despite similar power to weight ratios, the badger will 'av the ferret/polecat alliance, unless the latter carefully selected the battleground to suit their superior reactions and nimbleness :)

Cheers

Mark

[Senninha]

.........With the German cars it is so cheap to have them chipped:(

Paul.

As evidenced yesterday in my mates 535d tourer!

Stock looking but chipped with free flow exhaust and modified LSD, it pulls consistent 4.6 to 60mph and 10.2 to 100mph, over and over again, and is pulling strongly well past 140. I odnt know where it would max out, but I'm guessing aero and bulk will kick in at some point ....

As Paul says, play with the electronics, "boost to the max" as my mate calls it, and who needs a super car??

[Senninha]

........Personally I think that, despite similar power to weight ratios, the badger will 'av the ferret/polecat alliance, unless the latter carefully selected the battleground to suit their superior reactions and nimbleness :)

Cheers

Mark

Best comment in the whole thread ...IMO

[NoelWatson]

As evidenced yesterday in my mates 535d tourer!

Stock looking but chipped with free flow exhaust and modified LSD, it pulls consistent 4.6 to 60mph and 10.2 to 100mph, over and over again, and is pulling strongly well past 140. I odnt know where it would max out, but I'm guessing aero and bulk will kick in at some point ....

As Paul says, play with the electronics, "boost to the max" as my mate calls it, and who needs a super car??

Surely the engine can't last that long - it must have 500bhp in current tune?

[markc]

As evidenced yesterday in my mates 535d tourer!

Stock looking but chipped with free flow exhaust and modified LSD, it pulls consistent 4.6 to 60mph and 10.2 to 100mph, over and over again, and is pulling strongly well past 140. I odnt know where it would max out, but I'm guessing aero and bulk will kick in at some point ....

As Paul says, play with the electronics, "boost to the max" as my mate calls it, and who needs a super car??

So it's fast and comfy... but gives little impression of speed and even less feedback to the driver. Ohh and is a nasty, rattly, weasel ;)


Surely the engine can't last that long - it must have 500bhp in current tune?

Ohh yeah, fast, comfy... and a time bomb. At least it would be one less weasel :)

Cheers

Mark

[AR]

Have a courtesy 10 plate Merc C350 CDI sport with AMG wheels :) and is a very fun car stock, can't imagine with a good exhaust and tune.

Sorry abiut the Hi Jack

http://erroraccessdenied.com/files/images/relevant_interest.jpg

[Senninha]

So it's fast and comfy... but gives little impression of speed and even less feedback to the driver. Ohh and is a nasty, rattly, weasel

Ohh yeah, fast, comfy... and a time bomb. At least it would be one less weasel

Cheers

Mark

M sport makes for an involved drive, and as its one of the last of the line its hard to tell its a diesel from inside (which is where I drive from ;))...

... A time bomb under manufacturers warranty :)

Ary,

Ask if theres a good trade in for C220CDI sport saloon buddy :D

[jaytip]

... A time bomb under manufacturers warranty :)


Surely the warranty would be invalid with that sort of tuning?

[NoelWatson]

Surely the warranty would be invalid with that sort of tuning?

I'm wondering what chip it has on it as DMS, for example, only offer 344bhp

http://www.dmsautomotive.com/reviews.asp?gsel=1&gselid=9

and that wouldn't give 0-100 in the 10s.

[Senninha]

At teh wheel HP is circa 280, but its the torque that launches this car and being an auto its hard to measure on the rollers. Q: would the set up at TDI be able to measure??

It's not a DMS chip, but a local tuner and his laptop. The last 535 was p/x for this one at 76k miles and still pulling strong, however the diff wasn't happy, hence he's changed this one for the quiafe unit.

I'm trying to get him to vmax but if he comes he will likely bring the 500+hp Scooby with launch control, and anti lag to upset some of the big boys and their toys ;)

[AR]

C350CDI plus Barbus D6 = warranty and big SMILE.

[NoelWatson]

At teh wheel HP is circa 280, but its the torque that launches this car and being an auto its hard to measure on the rollers. Q: would the set up at TDI be able to measure??

It's not a DMS chip, but a local tuner and his laptop. The last 535 was p/x for this one at 76k miles and still pulling strong, however the diff wasn't happy, hence he's changed this one for the quiafe unit.

I'm trying to get him to vmax but if he comes he will likely bring the 500+hp Scooby with launch control, and anti lag to upset some of the big boys and their toys ;)

So power at flywheel ~350bhp? Kerb weight ~1800kg. How is it getting similar performance to M5?


I'm trying to get him to vmax but if he comes he will likely bring the 500+hp Scooby with launch control, and anti lag to upset some of the big boys and their toys


Reckon aerodynamics would hinder speed - would be surprised if it got past 175mph.

[markc]

M sport makes for an involved drive, and as its one of the last of the line its hard to tell its a diesel from inside (which is where I drive from ;))...

"M Sport" is not "M" though. Different suspension and crucially no "M Differential". If I wanted to go fast in a 5 Series I'd stop being a cheapskate and get the full banana M5 even if that meant putting up with the SMG gearbox :( Bizarrely the American market, home of the slushmatic, got the option of a proper 6 speed manual gearbox.


So power at flywheel ~350bhp? Kerb weight ~1800kg. How is it getting similar performance to M5?

Reckon aerodynamics would hinder speed - would be surprised if it got past 175mph.

Yes, 175mph is far too slow Noel!!! ;)

Cheers

Mark

[AR]

A lot of "company" people have diesels for obvoius reasons, and I can honestly say that the petrol car's days are counted unless for an extreme sports car.

Just last night I went for a meal with my wife and the C350 CDI overtaking performance is amazing, more so on the S mode.

[NoelWatson]

Yes, 175mph is far too slow Noel!!! ;)

Cheers

Mark

175 is being generous IMO. There was a 320 there last time that got low 150s IIRC, and the last tuned Scooby I saw blew up.

[NoelWatson]

A lot of "company" people have diesels for obvoius reasons, and I can honestly say that the petrol car's days are counted unless for an extreme sports car.

Just last night I went for a meal with my wife and the C350 CDI overtaking performance is amazing, more so on the S mode.


A lot of "company" people have diesels for obvoius reasons


What are the obvious reasons? My petrol has 175g with 272bhp - not much worse than some diseasels




and the C350 CDI overtaking performance is amazing


But dreadful step off unless you wind it up on teh footbrake if my E350 convertible I drove was anything to go by

[AR]

What are the obvious reasons? My petrol has 175g with 272bhp - not much worse than some diseasels

How much torque??? MPG?

[markc]

What are the obvious reasons?

The obvious reason is that they're all cheapskates :P


But dreadful step off unless you wind it up on the footbrake if my E350 convertible I drove was anything to go by

Right there is just one of the reasons I dislike weasel/diseasel/dizevils?

I KNOW they're the sensible option if money is any sort of consideration but I refuse to believe anyone genuinely prefers the fast diesel model to the equivalently fast petrol option.

I just don't understand anyone buying a S Class, 7 Series or new XJ with an oil burner up front. Spend all that money and then compromise it by not selecting the best engine, daft.

I liked Richard Hammond's recent comment that fitting the Porsche Panamera Turbo with stop start function is akin to owning Buckingham Palace and living solely in the kitchen so that you don't wear out the carpets :)

Cheers

Mark

[NoelWatson]

How much torque??? MPG?

mpg is claimed 38.8 on combined cycle. Torque at wheels - not sure as I don't have gearing to hand - which gear did you have in mind?

[AR]

In any gear a turbo diesel will trounce it.

[AR]

mpg is claimed 38.8 on combined cycle. Torque at wheels - not sure as I don't have gearing to hand - which gear did you have in mind?

BTW I do like the overall idea and execution of the R26 series.

[NoelWatson]

In any gear a turbo diesel will trounce it.

http://www.bmwheaven.com/database/compare.php?brand1=BMW&enumber1=E92_3&type1=926&brand2=BMW&enumber2=E92_3&type2=922&submit=Compare

6.1 vs 4.7s - would be good to see numbers including turbo lag, and top speed in 4th gear for both.

[NoelWatson]

http://www.bmwheaven.com/database/compare.php?brand1=BMW&enumber1=E92_3&type1=926&brand2=BMW&enumber2=E92_3&type2=922&submit=Compare

6.1 vs 4.7s - would be good to see numbers including turbo lag, and top speed in 4th gear for both.

And should add - maybe a 330i auto would be good for someone that doesn't want to change down manually to get overtaking punch

[NoelWatson]

BTW I do like the overall idea and execution of the R26 series.

Think they are on a roll and long may in continue. Such a shame that Peugoet aren't doing similar.

[markc]

Torque at wheels - not sure as I don't have gearing to hand - which gear did you have in mind?

A point many weaselists conveniently forget when banging on about their torque figures.


In any gear a turbo diesel will trounce it.

If you want maximum acceleration you always need to be in the best gear to achieve that regardless of weasel or petrol power.

Admit it weasists you're just tightfisted :P


Think they are on a roll and long may in continue. Such a shame that Peugoet aren't doing similar.

The new shape Megane RS250 (Cup) is also fantastic and doesn't compromise practicality, if you need it, with a roll cage :D

Cheers

Mark

[havoc]

Diesels are engines for lazy people, and for people who think a big 'shove in the back' = a quick car. It doesn't - the human body is better at detecting 'jerk' (the rate-of-change-of-acceleration) than acceleration itself.

Translated into cars, this means we think cars with very steep torque-curves are quicker than those with more progressive torque curves. i.e. turbos and turbo-diesels in particular.

Wheel-torque - I did the calcs on PH a few days ago - Civic Type R generates over 90% of the wheel-torque in 1st gear of a 318d in 1st gear (someone else picked the BMW, btw). Think that might just settle that particular argument...



Reasons not to buy a turbo-diesel vs a n/asp petrol:-
- Sound
- Throttle response
- Linearity of delivery (and thus ease of driving and driving smoothly, in the wet especially)
- Flexibility of engine
- Reliability / repair costs of engine
- Lighter flywheel (throttle 'feels' quicker due to more-rapid pick-up and drop-off of revs)

Diesels are flavour-of-the-month mainly due to journalists, marketing, and fuel prices. A diesel does not offer a GENUINE enthusiastic driver (as opposed to someone who just wants to go quickly - note the difference) ANYTHING vs a good petrol.



(Sorry...I'll get off my soapbox now! ;) )

[Nick Graves]

Diseasels are fine for HGVs and ships and stuff.

[AR]

Diesels are engines for lazy people

What a childish comment. :rolleyes:

[AR]

Diseasels are fine for HGVs and ships and stuff.

Ships use HFO.

Diesel 4X4 used for towing are happier and less stressed than petrol counterparts.

[AR]

http://www.ecotruck.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/AUDI-R10-TDi-engine.jpg

[markc]

Hey Havoc, that's my soapbox you're on :)


What a childish comment. :rolleyes:

You know what Havoc means though. Non car enthusiasts believe diesels to be fast because they get that short lived "shove" and would never go anywhere near a petrol engines redline, to experience the full performance envelope, anyway.


Ships use HFO.

HFO is still compression ignition though!


Diesel 4X4 used for towing are happier and less stressed than petrol counterparts.

Yes a good towing vehicle needs strong torque but that can just as easily come from big capacity low revving petrol engine. In some ways these are better, and less stressed, than turbo diesels as the torque doesn't fall of a cliff as soon as the revs die too low to for the turbo to boost.

Diesel fuel has about 20% more energy potential that petrol for the same volume, this is the main reason you get more MPG for the same or similar performance.

With petrol only being about 5-10% cheaper this is why it appeals to the spendthrift :P (yes I know that's a childish comment :))

Cheers

Mark

[AR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwMfYDBX3lE

[Dragonlady]

Well that was interesting.

Just as a side note.......ferrets and polecats are one and the same. A ferret is a albino polecat, both can come from the same litter;)

[havoc]

That's a racing engine Ary - you want to bring that into play and I'll counter with one of these two:-

Aston Martin V12 from Le Mans (GT1 / LMP1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BVHnkXd0CM

Honda HSV-010 GT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebEMJy4cznQ

Diesels are very effective, granted, and can be VERY quick. But that doesn't make 'em fun, or as pleasant to drive.


Ian - I just knew the ferret and the polecat would gang up on that poor badger! :D

[AR]

Diesels are very effective, granted, and can be VERY quick. But that doesn't make 'em fun, or as pleasant to drive.


Martin,

Have you driven a BMW 335d or C350 CDI?

If you haven't just do it and it will change your mind.

BTW Going Quick can be a lot of fun :)

[havoc]

Martin,

Have you driven a BMW 335d or C350 CDI?

If you haven't just do it and it will change your mind.

BTW Going Quick can be a lot of fun :)

Neither of those cars, but I have driven quick diesels. And the 'kick in the back' thing wears (for me, anyway) quite quickly. I get my kicks from throttle-response, from sound, and from the overall 'flow' of a car. I could see me getting a diesel as a family hack, but never for a fun car.

That said, a good friend is very different, likes his torque, and has just changed-down to a 330d to release some cash (history includes 2 E46 M3s, 2 E39 M5s, 7 E46 330i's or d's, 1 E60 535d and a smattering of other BMWs. The 535d kept up with my S2000 quite happily up to, ooh, 'enough' mph! He did very much like the NSX he 'won' for a week though...).

[Senninha]

So power at flywheel ~350bhp? Kerb weight ~1800kg. How is it getting similar performance to M5?

Reckon aerodynamics would hinder speed - would be surprised if it got past 175mph.

The answer I beleive is the quiafe diff for the acceleration ..

It pulls off the clock at 160 but is likely to need a lot of space to pass 170, which you can use where exactly??

MId range punch is what you want for real world daily driving, especially when you're covering 40k+ miles pa ... and then saves the fun for the weekend in the NSX :D

[markc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwMfYDBX3lE

Great video AR but at no point does it admit to being weasel powered, apart from the TDI badge. Almost embarrassed to admit it seems!


Just as a side note.......ferrets and polecats are one and the same. A ferret is a albino polecat, both can come from the same litter ;)

At last some genuinely interesting information (I mean it) from this thread :)


Have you driven a BMW 335d or C350 CDI?

If you haven't just do it and it will change your mind.

I've driven both and they didn't change mine. Fast and comfy, although both are overly firm riding, but "dead" mechanically :(


The answer I beleive is the quiafe diff for the acceleration ..

It pulls off the clock at 160 but is likely to need a lot of space to pass 170, which you can use where exactly??

Mid range punch is what you want for real world daily driving, especially when you're covering 40k+ miles pa ... and then saves the fun for the weekend in the NSX

I think you missed a few posts Paul. Does the 535d have a quiaffe diff? I noted that the M5's "M differential" makes a BIG difference to the handling.

Re mid range punch, this comes back to Havoc's "lazy" driver comment. Assuming both cars have auto transmissions both the weasel and petrol cars will select the best gear to achieve max acceleration, which means the more powerful petrol car will change down more cogs than the more torque'y weasel.

The end result may well be similar acceleration but the weasel driver may feel his vehicle achieved it in a more relaxed manner while the petrol driver feels he enjoys the superior response and engine noise.

Tenuously related but MUCH more interesting, "Weasels" are closely related to Ferrets and Polecats :D See here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel

Cheers

Mark

[WhyOne?]

Just as a side note.......ferrets and polecats are one and the same. A ferret is a albino polecat, both can come from the same litter;)

Not true AFAIAA.

Certainly a ferret is not an albino polecat (though they are frequently lighter in colour).

Polecats and Ferrets are genetically very similar and can interbreed (like wolves and domestic dogs for example). The difference between a domestic ferret and a European polecat is that a ferret is the domestication of the Polecat. Domestication has reduced the Ferrets ability to fend for themselves. Polecat Ferret hybrids do exist and are very difficult to distinguish from a true Polecat. Ferrets are generally smaller, and there are differences in bone structure, particularly skull shape.

Hope this assists with the ongoing discussion here.

[NoelWatson]

The answer I beleive is the quiafe diff for the acceleration ..



I can't see why that would make it any quicker accelerating on a flat level surface, especially as the M5 has a pretty good diff as well. 0-100 in just over 10 seconds for a big barge requires a lot of power.

[TheQuietOne]

So - can we bury this, delete our respective posts, and start again?!?

Gladly, I'm more than happy to accept my fault initially, and I appreciate you taking the time to realise why I over reacted too. :) I have physically removed all the uneccessary posts from this thread to keep it tidier. Noel I haven;t forgotten yours I promise!

[havoc]

Matt,

Whenever we finally meet up (Mugen visit, maybe?), the first beer's on me.

[gcon45]

Matt,

Whenever we finally meet up (Mugen visit, maybe?), the first beer's on me.

If you pair don't see eye to eye when you're sober what's it not gonna be like after a gallon or two of beer? :beer::shakefist::angry::laugh: