Mercedes GLK

[Sudesh]

Didnt even know this existed!

What you think,

http://www.viewmercedes.com/mercedes_photo/mercedes_benz_brabus_widestar_glk.jpg
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2009/bc/2009-Brabus-Widestar-based-on-Mercedes-Benz-GLK-Rear-Angle-1280x960.jpg

Think this a standard one

http://images.passionperformance.ca/photos/0/8/08909_2009_Mercedes-Benz_Classe_GLK.jpg

[markc]

Absolutely hideous... the antithesis of everything I like, want, desire, need in and from a car :)

Cheers

Mark

[AR]

Seen them last year on the continent and is sort of an X3 by Merc, not a fan.

We have the D8 GL and it has a lot of presence and ability.

Cheers,

AR

[Sudesh]

Seen them last year on the continent and is sort of an X3 by Merc, not a fan.

We have the D8 GL and it has a lot of presence and ability.

Cheers,

AR

Ah right, too small then. This I do like

http://www.zercustoms.com/news/images/Mercedes/BRABUS-Mercedes-GL63-Biturbo-2.jpg

[AR]

Ours has the same exhaust...and 800NM of Torque. :)

[Sudesh]

Ours has the same exhaust...and 800NM of Torque. :)

Very nice Ary!

[gumball]

I quite like these stupidly vulgar 4x4s, like the Cayenne Gemballa turbo, the standard ones are the ones I'm not keen on, if your going to have a big 4x4 go nuts with it. :D

[nakamichi]

Personally,I dislike all 4x4's.
The only acceptable ones are old school jeeps and landrovers that are used for their proper purpose by farmers.

[markc]

I quite like these stupidly vulgar 4x4s, like the Cayenne Gemballa turbo, the standard ones are the ones I'm not keen on, if your going to have a big 4x4 go nuts with it. :D

That might work in LA, Dubai or Cheadle but not the rest of the UK :)


Personally,I dislike all 4x4's.
The only acceptable ones are old school jeeps and landrovers that are used for their proper purpose by farmers.

Just as long as they stick to their farm tracks and avoid clogging up the proper roads.

What on earth is wrong with capacious cars with sensible centre of gravities? They won't fall over themselves in an extreme maneuver and even ride smoothly. My pick would be the M5 Tourer...

Cheers

Mark

[AR]

Personally,I dislike all 4x4's.
The only acceptable ones are old school jeeps and landrovers that are used for their proper purpose by farmers.

CJ jeeps are underpowered and I can read that you have never towed with a Landrover. Worse piece of crap for towing ever.

[AR]

That might work in LA, Dubai or Cheadle but not the rest of the UK :)



Just as long as they stick to their farm tracks and avoid clogging up the proper roads.

What on earth is wrong with capacious cars with sensible centre of gravities? They won't fall over themselves in an extreme maneuver and even ride smoothly. My pick would be the M5 Tourer...

Cheers

Mark

Once again I agree that they are too Big for the UK but if you have to tow and be able to move in the mud, 4x4 and diesel is the way.

[gumball]

Nope, estates are unnecessarily low. Much easier for ingress, egress and loading in a 4x4. :)

[TheSebringOne]

Mark, Cheadle? Its nice part in south Manchester, but Its not like the Cheshire that JC keeps ranting about.

I personally don't mind 4 x 4s, but if I had the money, I would prefer the same engine performance in a lower slung saloon/estate or whatever they are called by their respective manufacturers.

I've read that the latest incarnation of the Cayenne T, is so planted & stable that its no slouch in the handling department.

[NSX 2000]

I've read that the latest incarnation of the Cayenne T, is so planted & stable that its no slouch in the handling department.

But a Panda 4X4 would out class it on green lane plus not leave it's front and rear bumpers behind :no:

[markc]

Nope, estates are unnecessarily low. Much easier for ingress, egress and loading in a 4x4. :)

Honestly? I find these big 4x4s much more difficult to get into than a "proper" car/estate, easier get out of maybe. It could be that because it's what I've grown used to but I find it easier to "fall" down into the seat than climb up into one.

As for loading, how can lifting the load higher to get it in possibly make it easier?

Of course my argument is that they are NECESSARILY low to facilitate enjoyable and safe handling without the requirement for electronic intervention to prevent them rolling over :)

Actually those 4x4 designers should turn their considerable skills to the Reliant Robin so that Clarkson, Stig etc can't turn them over ;)

Cheers

Mark

[gumball]

There arn't many 4x4 left that you have to "climb in to" , they're all unitary bodied now so have a lower slung floor. You can't beat em for shiftin and towin. :D

Also: if your carrying something heavy it's at waist height, much better for the back than leaning down into an estates boot.

[TheSebringOne]

Paul, all that I'm saying is that " each to their own ". I do agree most 4x4 never go off road or rarely do. The 4WD comes in handy during the winter or in times of heavy rainfall.

[markc]

There arn't many 4x4 left that you have to "climb in to" , they're all unitary bodied now so have a lower slung floor. You can't beat em for shiftin and towin. :D

Also: if your carrying something heavy it's at waist height, much better for the back than leaning down into an estates boot.

Well I'm not especially short (5' 8.5") and I feel like I have to climb into my mates X5 which is supposedly a modern 4x4.

It amuses me that the "Sporty" versions feature lowered suspension... :)


The 4WD comes in handy during the winter or in times of heavy rainfall.

... but only if you have Cold weather or M+S tyres on them. Fit performance tyres as most of the blinged up versions like the pics posted by Sudesh and they're as, if not more, useless than a regular FWD hatch.

Cheers

Mark

[AR]

Mercedes GL lowers itself automatically at high speed.

Marc, my wife is 5 feet 7.5 inches tall, and has a really bad back and she finds it hard work to get out of the NSX ( with stock seats ) or any other car, such a CLS 320 or C350.

With the 4X4 she can swivel, foot on the side steps and step off. I know that not everyone with a 4x4 has spine problems, but in her case it works.

[jaytip]

... but only if you have Cold weather or M+S tyres on them. Fit performance tyres as most of the blinged up versions like the pics posted by Sudesh and they're as, if not more, useless than a regular FWD hatch.

Cheers

Mark
You have mentioned this before and i think you are completely wrong.You stress that the tyres are the crucial part and to a degree you are right,but to state that a vehicle which has more weight,lower gearing,AND a four wheel drive system,would be worse in winter-read snow, weather is ridiculous.
As i stated before i had an Audi coupe which had four wheel drive,and i got FAR more places than your regular FWD car could when the white stuff came down.And you can't pick up a car mag without the journos mentioning the extra grip levels afforded by 4x4 cars.

[NSX 2000]

You have mentioned this before and i think you are completely wrong.You stress that the tyres are the crucial part and to a degree you are right,but to state that a vehicle which has more weight,lower gearing,AND a four wheel drive system,would be worse in winter-read snow, weather is ridiculous.
As i stated before i had an Audi coupe which had four wheel drive,and i got FAR more places than your regular FWD car could when the white stuff came down.And you can't pick up a car mag without the journos mentioning the extra grip levels afforded by 4x4 cars.

I agree with Mark due to my experiance with high performance scoobies; due to the tyres fitted to my last scoobie as soon as the temp dipped below 1 deg then the front and back end would be all over the shop if I took a sharp bend to fast. However in a V5 golf I had (heavy engine over the front wheels) with normal run of the mill Goodyears it performed well above average in last winters snow!

[AR]

Lancruiser with Michelins 4x4 regular tyres, no problems there.

[jaytip]

I agree with Mark due to my experiance with high performance scoobies; due to the tyres fitted to my last scoobie as soon as the temp dipped below 1 deg then the front and back end would be all over the shop if I took a sharp bend to fast. However in a V5 golf I had (heavy engine over the front wheels) with normal run of the mill Goodyears it performed well above average in last winters snow!
But Mark is talking about off roaders.Vehicles pupose built to deal with adverse weather conditions.

[NSX 2000]

But Mark is talking about off roaders.Vehicles pupose built to deal with adverse weather conditions.

But when the likes of AMG, M division, Kahn etc get hold of them on go 22inch wheels and rubber more suited to doing sub 8 minute laps of the ring not getting you accross a muddy field towing a horse box.

This how you tell the differance between a builders 4X4 and a devlopers 4X4 :laugh::D:D:laugh:

[markc]

Mercedes GL lowers itself automatically at low speed.

Now that really amuses me. You won't find too many people argue that a low centre of gravity is what you need for stability and safety in HIGH speed manouvers and yet the Merc raises itself? Joking aside, I assume it lowers itself again at higher speeds for safety reasons.


You have mentioned this before and i think you are completely wrong.You stress that the tyres are the crucial part and to a degree you are right,but to state that a vehicle which has more weight,lower gearing,AND a four wheel drive system,would be worse in winter-read snow, weather is ridiculous.
As i stated before i had an Audi coupe which had four wheel drive,and i got FAR more places than your regular FWD car could when the white stuff came down.And you can't pick up a car mag without the journos mentioning the extra grip levels afforded by 4x4 cars.

OK, my argument is that a 4wd vehicle running on high performance summer tyres is next to useless in winter, snow and ice, conditions NOT that 4wd drive is definitively worse than a fwd... although that could also be the case.

Lets start with the fundamentals and dissect this...
The tyres are the ONLY things that provide a vehicle "grip" on the road surface.
Each tyre has a finite amount of "grip".
The "grip" produced by a particular tyre on a particular surface is determined by the compound, tread pattern, contact patch and the weight acting on it.
Gearing has nothing to do with grip applied to the road surface. Torque yes, grip no.
LOT's of variables already right, but lets say it gets cold and/or snowy and the variables of contact patch and weight do not change, what do we get?

Under braking does 4wd have any effect? Nope.
Under steady state cornering does 4wd have any effect? Nope.
Under braking while cornering does 4wd have any effect? Nope.
Under acceleration does 4wd have any effect? Yes, "traction", ("grip" suggests lateral acceleration as well) is superior so acceleration is improved :)
Under acceleration while cornering does 4wd have any effect? Yes, all tyres are driven equally so the "grip" of any one, or axle pair, is not overloaded as quickly which leads to potentially faster cornering.

So 4wd does indeed offer potential improvements for accelerating, and cornering while accelerating :)

HOWEVER those improvements are completely overshadowed by the improvements of using correct tyres for the conditions.

A 4wd vehicle on high performance summer tyres in winter conditions will have...

Significantly inferior braking performance. Because 4wd has no effect on braking.
Significantly inferior steady state cornering performance. Because 4wd has no effect on steady state cornering.
Inferior acceleration (probably). Although 4wd distributes the power/torque across all 4 tyres this will likely still not overcome the superior traction offered by the 2wd vehicle wearing tyres designed for the conditions.
Inferior acceleration while cornering. As above, the power/torque reaching each driven contact patch is less than the 2wd version BUT will not overcome the superior traction, and lateral grip, offered by the 2wd vehicle wearing tyres designed for the conditions.

Good braking performance is by far the most important thing you need in cold adverse conditions and 4wd does absolutely nothing to help this.

You cold argue that the improved traction, and therefore acceleration, afforded by 4wd could in fact be more dangerous as you'll be traveling faster when you find out that you have very little ability to brake!


Lancruiser with Michelins 4x4 regular tyres, no problems there.

Those Michelin 4x4 "regular" tyres are almost certainly "All Terrain" designated tyres? Be careful, these have chunky tread patterns to help stop mud clogging them should you venture off road BUT use summer tyre rubber compounds so that they work reasonably well on metaled roads. These summer compounds turn solid in cold conditions massively reducing their traction and grip! If they're "M+S" rated tyres, they will work well in the cold but wear more quickly in the summer.

The long and short of it is that you really need summer tyres for summer and winter (Cold Weather) tyres for winter.

Cheers

Mark

[AR]

Now that really amuses me. You won't find too many people argue that a low centre of gravity is what you need for stability and safety in HIGH speed manouvers and yet the Merc raises itself? Joking aside, I assume it lowers itself again at higher speeds for safety reasons.


Cheers

Mark

Yes Mark I had a lapsus calami of course it lowers itself at highway speeds. :)

[NoelWatson]

But when the likes of AMG, M division, Kahn etc get hold of them on go 22inch wheels and rubber more suited to doing sub 8 minute laps of the ring not getting you accross a muddy field towing a horse box.

This how you tell the differance between a builders 4X4 and a devlopers 4X4 :laugh::D:D:laugh:

An X5 in chav spec comes with 315 section rear tyres. I drove one on Sat.

[NSX 2000]

An X5 in chav spec comes with 315 section rear tyres. I drove one on Sat.

Your thinking of becoming a developer or a footballers play thing :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[NoelWatson]

Your thinking of becoming a developer or a footballers play thing :laugh::laugh::laugh:

I think we will stick with the rusting POS for the time being. We need to get ours on the rolling road to see if your diseasal will outperform my petrol.

[jaytip]

Now that really amuses me. You won't find too many people argue that a low centre of gravity is what you need for stability and safety in HIGH speed manouvers and yet the Merc raises itself? Joking aside, I assume it lowers itself again at higher speeds for safety reasons.



OK, my argument is that a 4wd vehicle running on high performance summer tyres is next to useless in winter, snow and ice, conditions NOT that 4wd drive is definitively worse than a fwd... although that could also be the case.

Lets start with the fundamentals and dissect this...
The tyres are the ONLY things that provide a vehicle "grip" on the road surface.
Each tyre has a finite amount of "grip".
The "grip" produced by a particular tyre on a particular surface is determined by the compound, tread pattern, contact patch and the weight acting on it.
Gearing has nothing to do with grip applied to the road surface. Torque yes, grip no.
LOT's of variables already right, but lets say it gets cold and/or snowy and the variables of contact patch and weight do not change, what do we get?

Under braking does 4wd have any effect? Nope.
Under steady state cornering does 4wd have any effect? Nope.
Under braking while cornering does 4wd have any effect? Nope.
Under acceleration does 4wd have any effect? Yes, "traction", ("grip" suggests lateral acceleration as well) is superior so acceleration is improved :)
Under acceleration while cornering does 4wd have any effect? Yes, all tyres are driven equally so the "grip" of any one, or axle pair, is not overloaded as quickly which leads to potentially faster cornering.

So 4wd does indeed offer potential improvements for accelerating, and cornering while accelerating :)

HOWEVER those improvements are completely overshadowed by the improvements of using correct tyres for the conditions.

A 4wd vehicle on high performance summer tyres in winter conditions will have...

Significantly inferior braking performance. Because 4wd has no effect on braking.
Significantly inferior steady state cornering performance. Because 4wd has no effect on steady state cornering.
Inferior acceleration (probably). Although 4wd distributes the power/torque across all 4 tyres this will likely still not overcome the superior traction offered by the 2wd vehicle wearing tyres designed for the conditions.
Inferior acceleration while cornering. As above, the power/torque reaching each driven contact patch is less than the 2wd version BUT will not overcome the superior traction, and lateral grip, offered by the 2wd vehicle wearing tyres designed for the conditions.

Good braking performance is by far the most important thing you need in cold adverse conditions and 4wd does absolutely nothing to help this.

You cold argue that the improved traction, and therefore acceleration, afforded by 4wd could in fact be more dangerous as you'll be traveling faster when you find out that you have very little ability to brake!



Those Michelin 4x4 "regular" tyres are almost certainly "All Terrain" designated tyres? Be careful, these have chunky tread patterns to help stop mud clogging them should you venture off road BUT use summer tyre rubber compounds so that they work reasonably well on metaled roads. These summer compounds turn solid in cold conditions massively reducing their traction and grip! If they're "M+S" rated tyres, they will work well in the cold but wear more quickly in the summer.

The long and short of it is that you really need summer tyres for summer and winter (Cold Weather) tyres for winter.

Cheers

Mark
Read your earlier posts Mark.You make NO mention of FWD cars driving on winter tyres.I too have read Evo's winter tyre articles and i don't argue against their advantages over regular tyres (lets not call them summer tyres because the amount of winter tyres actually sold in the UK is very little compered to "regular" tyres) and i'm even thinking of getting a set of winter tyres for my taxi come the winter months.
People are not advised to take off their regular tyres when the weather gets cold,but reading Evo's article,you would be advised to stop using the winter tyres when the weather gets warmer(above 7 degrees i think it is).So clearly they are a specialised tyre not an all round tyre.
All the points you make above are valid-if you live in Holland,but alas,i live in Wales where we have hills (and some of them are quite steep) so yes,an off roading type vehicle with MUCH lower gearing on regular tyres is going to be much better than a front wheel drive vehicle on regular tyres.
I'm not going to continue this debate after this post because i live on a hill (quite a steep one) and i see it with my own eyes EVERY time the snow falls.

Regards,

Ivor.

[Sudesh]

An X5 in chav spec comes with 315 section rear tyres. I drove one on Sat.

OH NO!! Dont say that! lol

My 4.6is came as standard with 315's from memory. Didnt think it was a chav vehicle or footballer thing as they seem to drive RR's blinged out with real tacky stuff. Mine was just a lovely standard vehicle. My Dad who is in his 60's also drove a 4.6 lol

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j77/icongroup/BMWX5/LOWDSC00920.jpg

[NoelWatson]

OH NO!! Dont say that! lol

My 4.6is came as standard with 315's from memory. Didnt think it was a chav vehicle or footballer thing as they seem to drive RR's blinged out with real tacky stuff. Mine was just a lovely standard vehicle. My Dad who is in his 60's also drove a 4.6 lol

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j77/icongroup/BMWX5/LOWDSC00920.jpg


I thought you might have the wheels in that size so couldn't resist a dig! I think (with the new model at least) the tyres come in 315 if you choose MSport and/or dynamic pack. Ride wasn't too bad - certainly no worse than our 330i on SE suspension.

[Sudesh]

That is the standard wheels on the 4.6is!


I thought you might have the wheels in that size so couldn't resist a dig! I think (with the new model at least) the tyres come in 315 if you choose MSport and/or dynamic pack. Ride wasn't too bad - certainly no worse than our 330i on SE suspension.