Back to one Honda again

[markc]

Don't worry the NSX hasn't gone.

So after a year of trouble free, low cost, ultra reliable motoring in the Accord (2003 2.4i Exec Auto Tourer) I decided to replace it with older, more expensive to run (and fuel) probably less reliable equivalent.

Why I hear you cry?...

Let me start by saying that the Accord is a fine car. Quick, comfortable, well equipped, ultra reliable, fairly refined and reasonable economical. The last 2, damning with faint praise statements, provide a clue but the clincher is the engine. Nothing to do with the engine per se, rather the number of cylinders which for me set the character of the car... it's just rather dull.

I've become used to multi cylinder engines over the years with a succession of BMW 5 series (E34 & E39) and Mercedes E Class (W210) Tourers, all powered by 6 or 8 cylinder petrol engines, providing the daily transport... and of course the NSX lurking in the garage :)

The car that the Accord replaced was a 1998 E320 7 seat Tourer a capable, honest, friendly, do anything holdall of a car, a size bigger than the Accord as well. I didn't realise how much I liked that car... until it was gone. It had to go though as at 12 yrs and 188K miles rust, a W210 problem, was taking it's toll.

So while the smart thing to do was keep the Accord, I fancied another E Class and decided the rare 4.3Ltr V8 powered version (E55's are still too expensive) would be the one to have. A saved search for "E430 Estate" on eBay and Autotrader eventually threw up a suitable car.

A 2001, 72k mile, E430 7 seat Tourer in Blue/Black metallic riding on "Sport" spec suspension and 17" wheels now graces my drive where the Accord previously sat. To my eyes it looks elegant, subtle and not in the least bit "flashy" in a way all newer Mercs don't. The W210 is the last of pre-bling Mercedes and while it isn't built the way Mercedes used to be, being a late model W210 most of the issues, including rust, are sorted.

The V8 fires with a lovely "wooomph" and glides away as if running on a mixture of honey and cream :) It's not what you'd call fast but the 275hp and 300ft/lbs provide effortless and relentless progress. Fuel consumption is of course the big downside. The computer is showing a long term average of 21.4mpg and my first full tank with the car matches this. The Accord only averaged 24mpg though so it's not a huge difference. On the long runs to France where more than half of my annual mileage is racked up I expect the Merc to virtually match the Accord's 30mpg average.

Being a V8 petrol and with fuel prices currently hitting all time highs meant the Merc was cheap, mine for £3,200 filled with fuel, but it needed a big service which cost me £450 last week. I sold the Accord privately for £4.5K so I have another £850 before I'm behind on the deal. That should get me 2 more annual/small services and the fuel in between... unless any big stuff goes wrong!

So not the most sensible thing to do but when has that ever been fun. :)

Cheers

Mark

[havoc]

Hope it works - old Mercs are very good machines and I agree on the 'elegant vs flashy'. For similar reasons I'm keeping my eyes on Legacy Spec-B's in the classifieds on-and-off, as I'd rather a more interesting 'practical car' than a mainstream 4-pot.

Edit: Not to replace 'teg, more as a 'practical car' as-and-when we need one.

[TheSebringOne]

Mark, have you any pictures of the Benz?

I'm currently in a dilemma of whether to go petrol or diesel!

I travel about 5k to 6k miles pa
Extra purchase price of aprox £1500 of diesel over petrol
Extra price of diesel over unleaded of approx 6 pence a litre
More mpg of diesel of 44 versus 33 of petrol
Better resale price of diesel over petrol
More frequent servicing of diesel engines
Slightly cheaper road tax, but not by much

I would appreciate what peoples thoughts & experiences are?

[havoc]

I would appreciate what peoples thoughts & experiences are?

Stick with petrol unless you desperately love torque.

Modern TDi's, IMHO, are a big risk on the second-hand market - turbo's, common-rail systems and DPFs all fail and all create 4-figure bills. And that's before you get to them not being used as intended (lots of short-journeys = diesel in sump in some designs (e.g. Mazda and IIRC early Fords) due to over-fuelling to 'burn-off' crap in the cat, except engine doesn't get hot enough and the excess diesel winds up in the sump, which is then a fairly big job to fix).

Petrols also sound better, to my mind have much more natural and easier-to-drive throttle response, and are usually cheaper to maintain even before they go 'pop'.

[NoelWatson]

Stick with petrol unless you desperately love torque.

Modern TDi's, IMHO, are a big risk on the second-hand market - turbo's, common-rail systems and DPFs all fail and all create 4-figure bills. And that's before you get to them not being used as intended (lots of short-journeys = diesel in sump in some designs (e.g. Mazda and IIRC early Fords) due to over-fuelling to 'burn-off' crap in the cat, except engine doesn't get hot enough and the excess diesel winds up in the sump, which is then a fairly big job to fix).

Petrols also sound better, to my mind have much more natural and easier-to-drive throttle response, and are usually cheaper to maintain even before they go 'pop'.

But my modern petrol 330i has broken down five times since new. I think you need to be more specific - new petrol's are just as bad.

[havoc]

Possibly true - modern emissions regs are definitely trying to get engines to 'do too much'. I'd still go down the "KISS" route, and avoid (as far as possible)
- Turbos
- Common-rail injection
- Direct injection
- DPFs
- EGR (pretty much impossible now, but can be blanked-off if you're so inclined)

Once you've done that, even a 90k Peugeot engine shouldn't give you much bother. Wouldn't want to say the same about the rest of the car though... :D



Out of interest, what have the problems been with the BM? (And is it an E46 or E90?)

[NoelWatson]

Possibly true - modern emissions regs are definitely trying to get engines to 'do too much'. I'd still go down the "KISS" route, and avoid (as far as possible)
- Turbos
- Common-rail injection
- Direct injection
- DPFs
- EGR (pretty much impossible now, but can be blanked-off if you're so inclined)

Once you've done that, even a 90k Peugeot engine shouldn't give you much bother. Wouldn't want to say the same about the rest of the car though... :D



Out of interest, what have the problems been with the BM? (And is it an E46 or E90?)

E91. Bought it in 2008, and have had misfiring issues. Drops a cylinder, and the dealer replaces a coil pack or two, and on one occasion ECU and HPFP. Has done 32k miles. Car is three years old next month - year's warranty is £520 which I am definitely getting.

[TheSebringOne]

Thinking about it more and more, I'm heading down the petrol route I think.

[Senninha]

Thinking about it more and more, I'm heading down the petrol route I think.

Hi James,

If you read you're own OP then you have your answer. Low annual mileage (huge by your NSX stds;)), lower fuel pump prices and lower forecourt price if you're looking at larger engines, then you're on your way down the petrol model.

Due to my annual mileage for business I run diesel, but then I'm fast approaching 100k in 3yrs so suffer from none of the above syptoms. However, the pump prices and efficeincy of recent petrol engines are on paper at least starting to make the petrol option look tempting .... maybe another 100 miles per tank would sway me back to petrol ... but for now I'll stick to using unleaded for manually engaged fast fun motoring rather then automated business commuting ...

regards, Paul

[markc]

Mark, have you any pictures of the Benz?

I'm currently in a dilemma of whether to go petrol or diesel!

I travel about 5k to 6k miles pa
Extra purchase price of aprox £1500 of diesel over petrol
Extra price of diesel over unleaded of approx 6 pence a litre
More mpg of diesel of 44 versus 33 of petrol
Better resale price of diesel over petrol
More frequent servicing of diesel engines
Slightly cheaper road tax, but not by much

I would appreciate what peoples thoughts & experiences are?

As some others have said a lot of it is down to your annual mileage and usage. People get hung up on fuel consumption or CO2 emissions (which defines road tax) but the truth is usually that depreciation makes these pale into insignificance. However depreciation becomes MUCH less of a factor as you buy older cheaper cars like I do for my daily buses.

At your annual mileage fuel is not really significant. As you go beyond 10K per annual is certainly does.

Extra purchase price (of the weasel version) maybe significant depending on what car you're after. Like for like a Merc E320 (petrol) and a E320CDI (weasel) are actually very similar prices, at least on the face of it, but there are almost 10 times as many weasels to choose from. It's therefore easier to find a weasel version but also harder for the seller to maintain a strong sale price when faced with so much competition. On the flip side the petrol seller is fighting against all time high fuel prices and 33% worse fuel consumption. Lets say on average the weasel version of any particular model is approx 20% more expensive to buy.

You'll need to build a spreadsheet to work out how and when the running costs between your specific petrol and weasel choice cross. I have a crappy one that I'll use to share some sample figures :)

I think you're about right on the fuel consumption, an "equivalent", like E320 vs E320CDI, weasel will on average return about 33% better economy.

W.R.T resale, like the current purchase price it depends on the car you're selling. Deprication is still a big factor, I'd say for an average run of the mill shunter you'll lose 40% of the value of your car, old or new (yes I know there are a few exceptions), over 3 yrs of ownership. If there are lots of them to chose from your price might have to be lower to find a buyer. Lets assume the weasel maintains it 20% price premium over the petrol when you come to sell it.

Weasels do indeed require more servicing, call it 20% higher serving costs.

Road tax depends on year and or CO2 output... for the moment at least. My 2001 Merc is currently £245pa. Who knows what the government will do in the future!

Some examples using the above assumptions and a petrol car that averages 30mpg (weasel 40mpg) and fuel at £1.30 (weasel £1.37)...
A £6K weasel covering 6K miles pa will be £48 MORE expensive than the petrol equivalent over 3yrs.
A £6K weasel covering 12K miles pa will be £555 LESS expensive than the petrol equivalent over 3yrs.
A £6K weasel covering 20K mile pa will be £1,208 LESS expensive than the petrol equivalent over 3yrs.

A £12K weasel covering 6K miles pa will be £888 MORE expensive than the petrol equivalent over 3yrs.
A £12K weasel covering 12K miles pa will be £284 MORE expensive than the petrol equivalent over 3yrs.
A £12K weasel covering 20K mile pa will be £368 LESS expensive than the petrol equivalent over 3yrs.

You can see the effect of depreciation coming to play in the above figures. The more you spend on the car the more you lose/the longer it takes to make the weasels fuel consumption advantage pay!

For me though the petrol equivalent car is just much nicer, and I don't mean faster, to drive. I know weasels have come on leaps and bounds over the last few years but to me they still sound horrible at idle, especially when cold, and I don't like the all then nothing power delivery. I suppose an auto gearbox hides the latter and I can't argue with the economy difference. If I were doing 20K+ miles per years and needed a newer (new-3yrs old) car even I might have to go weasel. :eek:

My forced to have weasel would have to be a multi cylinder and automatic transmission car BUT if I were spending serious money, say £50K+, it'd have to be petrol as I couldn't ruin an S Class or Jag XJ by spec'ing anything but a super smooth petrol V8 :)

Here's some pics of my new daily shunter...
86618662
Cheers

Mark

[TheSebringOne]

Thanks guys for your opinions, experiences and views.

Mark, thanks for your very detailed & informative reply.

[Nick Graves]

Nice post. Not a beancounter, are you?

There are a LOT of advantages to a pre-01 car; lower VED with a juicy engine, fewer FREDs to go wrong and as you say, less unnecessary bulk and vulgarity form which most moderns suffer.

I still haven't quite accepted the W210 (the W124T was almost the perfect, timeless M-B classic design) but it IS a good choice.