Back Up For Sale Again "CAT C" Something lol

[Sudesh]

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2578208.htm

[NSXGB]

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2578208.htm

I wonder what the oil pressure is? :)

[Sudesh]

I wonder what the oil pressure is? :)

And the Airbag

Maybe we should play a "spotted whats missing game lol"

[Nick Graves]

Apart from the wonky & different-colour OSF, what's the story, morning glory?

Don't remember this one...

[Hagasan]

This was previously for sale in the UK wasn't it? At a rather inflated price IIRC..... Does this mean some cloggy man mugged into buying it....or is it just UK/Dutch dodgy dealer colaboration?

[havoc]

This was up <6 months ago, from memory Nick - it's another 'bitsa' - pre-95 armrest-console (which is poorly fitted), NA1 gearstick, not sure if the doorcards aren't NA1 also (certainly badly aligned). Steering wheel airbag has deployed, clearly. Previous advert wasn't quite so honest as this one...

[Papalazarou]

Don't want to sound retentive. No wait, I do. But that gearnob was oe fit until the later facelifts. Both my 02 cars had them.

Cheers,

James.

[havoc]

Don't want to sound retentive. No wait, I do. But that gearnob was oe fit until the later facelifts. Both my 02 cars had them.

Cheers,

James.

:doh:

OK, OK, I'll get me coat...

[Nick Graves]

This was up <6 months ago, from memory Nick - it's another 'bitsa' - pre-95 armrest-console (which is poorly fitted), NA1 gearstick, not sure if the doorcards aren't NA1 also (certainly badly aligned). Steering wheel airbag has deployed, clearly. Previous advert wasn't quite so honest as this one...

I thought that was a different one; although there are so many!

Thing is though; why do people rice them up with really trashy wheels & black bonnets? I mean, even if they stuck a set of S2000 wheels on to replace the damaged ones...

Presumably, they all fall into the same trap; oooh, quick $$$. Hang on, it's made from coke tins, there's none on scrapyards & bits are nadcrushingly pricey. Quick, offlead it onto another mug...

[Nick Graves]

There are a couple of very expensive wrecked S2000s on there, too.

Must be worth it to someone...

[NSXGB]

So, what would you say it's worth?
I thought from the pictures it required a similar ish amount of work as the silver one recently sold, so a lot more competitively priced?? Always room for negotiation as well I would imagine.
£14K?

[Nick Graves]

Good question; it's really the moody front wing that puts me off. The cosmetic stuff is, well, not unsortable. The wonky back wheel could kill it dead though.

I don't think they'd let it go for 14 large. They must've done that on buying the car before getting it this far, if James' experience is anything to go by.

If it is a genuine low mileage '02, there must be some hope for it.

We need another enthusiast with access to a jig & a very reputable specialist carmaker, I fear.

Actually, at 14 large, it'd be worth a punt.

[Mugenman]

mmm... I personally wouldn't go near this one! The car I bought has not been crashed or compromised structurally and although needing a lot of cosmetic work - has a great foundation to build on. This car looks like it has had a frontal impact but also rear wheel alignment damage?!? As aluminium cars are designed to bear crash loads throughout the entire structure I would be very sceptical of a repair which has not been documented or carried out by an official Honda work shop - this looks like a DIY fix.

My car is now at the body shop - will update with photos soon (of all the bad stuff!!!)

Louis

[Nick Graves]

I tend to agree; funny how most NSXs that have been crash-repaired have awful panel alignment. I saw a couple of facelifts at Chiswick that looked right dogs.

Sort of like every time you tapped a MK3 Escort on the nose, the chassis leg always moved back 3".

[markc]

As aluminium cars are designed to bear crash loads throughout the entire structure....

Where did you hear that Louis, I don't think this is the case? The NSX has crash/crumple structures just like any chassis design of it's time or since. Sure they're not un-boltable/un-glueable like the Lotus and Aston chassis but they're still repairable/replaceable.

It's certainly more complicated to repair than its steel fabricated cousins but good safe repair is entirely possible. There just aren't that many repair centres with the equipment, skill and experience to do it. That, the high cost of spare components, ohh and the ludicrous motor insurance system we have evolved, make NSX's (aluminium chassis'd cars in general) prohibitively expensive to repair... which leads to the occasional less than perfect d.i.y. jobs we see.

Cheers

Mark

[Senninha]

Where did you hear that Louis, I don't think this is the case? The NSX has crash/crumple structures just like any chassis design of it's time or since. Sure they're not un-boltable/un-glueable like the Lotus and Aston chassis but they're still repairable/replaceable.

Cheers

Mark

From what I understand, front or rear repairs done properly may even be stronger than OEM.

For example, front cradle is spot welding during factory assembly to the main chassis. For an accident repair you would need to 'un-weld' and remove the damaged front end. Your new/replacement cradle would then align as new. As it is not a production line it is highly likely that the repair centre will include a seam weld rather than spot weld to join the sections.

I believe this is the process followed in Japan and will offer no alignment issues or resale concerns.

Surely whats needed is a restoration bodyshop with aluminum skillset in house and we could start seeing these cars repaired properly?

regards, Paul

[WhyOne?]

Surely whats needed is a restoration bodyshop with aluminum skillset in house and we could start seeing these cars repaired properly?



Market forces.

There need to be enough aluminium framed cars on the road to make it commercially viable for a company to invest in the necessary skills & kit.

Bent NSX's will never support this.

Bent Jag's & Audi's probably will.

[markc]

There need to be enough aluminium framed cars on the road to make it commercially viable for a company to invest in the necessary skills & kit.

Bent NSX's will never support this.

Bent Jag's & Audi's probably will.

So in theory it's looking good for the future. As more and more vehicles use aluminium in their construction and as it filters down to more mundane and therefore populous models there will be more facilities and skilled people capable of working on/with it :)

Once our NSX's gain full classic status and start to change hands, among discerning enthusiasts and collectors, for £100K plus, the cost of repair will become less of a factor and lightly damaged cars like Papa's will become economical to repair properly through the insurance system. I expect all this to happens in a matter of weeks ;)

Cheers

Mark

[Mugenman]

From my understanding, in the event of an accident - an aluminium structured car is designed to take crash loads through the front chassis legs which are designed to deform at a certain force which is repairable. However, the load paths will continue through the rockers and upper structure if the crash is severe enough. Although repairable at a cost, what I was trying to say is that a car like this one which has been crashed and repairs have clearly been done on the cheap - it will be very difficult to understand the full extent of the original damage and how well it has been repaired. I would be very sceptical!!

As for repairs making the structure stronger after a good repair - I'm not sure if this is ideal as the original structure will be designed to give in certain areas at certain loads - if you suddenly strengthen part of a structure somewhere where it was originally designed to give way - it may compromise the overall performance of the car in a crash situation. This is what I understand and what I have been explained by people at work.

Attached is an image of the front crash structure - looks pretty delicate to me!!


8782

PS - I am not a body structures engineer and work in product marketing so I may be wrong and welcome to be told so!!

[duncan]

Simple, do like Porsche did with the alloy spaceframe in 917s, paint it black!

[markc]

From my understanding, in the event of an accident - an aluminium structured car is designed to take crash loads through the front chassis legs which are designed to deform at a certain force which is repairable. However, the load paths will continue through the rockers and upper structure if the crash is severe enough. Although repairable at a cost, what I was trying to say is that a car like this one which has been crashed and repairs have clearly been done on the cheap - it will be very difficult to understand the full extent of the original damage and how well it has been repaired. I would be very sceptical!!

I believe that you're quite correct regarding the impact loads being absorbed by the crash structure and, when severe enough, the load paths do indeed continue through into the rigid structures (sills, pillars etc) BUT this is no different in a aluminium alloy chassis car to a steel one. If the impact is hard enough (has sufficient energy) to transmit sufficient force into the rigid part of the chassis, steel or aluminium alloy, so as to permanently deform it then the vehicle is toast, or at least requires a new bodyshell. Aluminium alloy and steel have some quite different characteristics so that they behave differently under severe impact loads but I don't believe this means the "rigid" part of the chassis in an aluminium alloy vehicle is inherently at any more at risk of permanent damage than a steel one.

Many years ago a friend of mine hit a roundabout kerb at high speed in his then new'ish Ford Orion (nasty car). He drove the car home and apart from a bent front right wheel/suspension it looked and drove OK. The next morning he tried to open the drivers door which was very stiff, he then noted that both the driver and passenger doors on that side were at jaunty angles to their apertures. In fact the impact energy had been transfered right through the suspension, crash structure and into the "rigid" steel shell distorting it beyond repair. The car was written off.


Attached is an image of the front crash structure - looks pretty delicate to me!!

8782

Delicate and indeed quite beautiful :cool:


PS - I am not a body structures engineer and work in product marketing so I may be wrong and welcome to be told so!!

Nor I but a keen interest in these things ensure that I like to understand them.

It just seems such a shame that relatively lightly damaged and perfectly repairable NSX's go to their grave for the want of a service and repair infrastructure in place to support them :(

Cheers

Mark

[Senninha]

.....Attached is an image of the front crash structure - looks pretty delicate to me!!




http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=8782

WOW, you got that stripped down quick enough :laugh:

[Mugenman]

[QUOTE=markc;82293]Aluminium alloy and steel have some quite different characteristics so that they behave differently under severe impact loads but I don't believe this means the "rigid" part of the chassis in an aluminium alloy vehicle is inherently at any more at risk of permanent damage than a steel one.

Quite agree - sorry for not being clear - I wasn't comparing with Steel but more to structures like on the McLaren MP4-12C where the front legs will deform totally before compromising the main carbon structure - the car passed 56kph front & offset (45 deg) crash tests without even cracking the windscreen. This permits bolt off/bolt on of an entire front end and it will be as good as new. With Aluminium structures (& steel), it's not as straight forward as this.

You are right, lighter damage on aluminium cars is repairable with the right skillset and little/no detriment to the overall performance of the structure. I would personally still avoid them unless the repair has been carried out officially which clearly this car has not had. Big risk IMO

I think the biggest problem for some of these vehicles is the cost of spare parts - having glanced at Honda Parts pricing: (conservative estimates without VAT) 3.5k for bonnet, 3-4k for front bumper - 2k for lights - 10k for front bulkhead assembly, 2k for front wings!!! To me this is the real problem in getting these cars back on the road even when the damage is 'light'.

Cheers
Louis

[Papalazarou]

[QUOTE]

Quite agree - sorry for not being clear - I wasn't comparing with Steel but more to structures like on the McLaren MP4-12C where the front legs will deform totally before compromising the main carbon structure - the car passed 56kph front & offset (45 deg) crash tests without even cracking the windscreen. This permits bolt off/bolt on of an entire front end and it will be as good as new. With Aluminium structures (& steel), it's not as straight forward as this.

You are right, lighter damage on aluminium cars is repairable with the right skillset and little/no detriment to the overall performance of the structure. I would personally still avoid them unless the repair has been carried out officially which clearly this car has not had. Big risk IMO

I think the biggest problem for some of these vehicles is the cost of spare parts - having glanced at Honda Parts pricing: (conservative estimates without VAT) 3.5k for bonnet, 3-4k for front bumper - 2k for lights - 10k for front bulkhead assembly, 2k for front wings!!! To me this is the real problem in getting these cars back on the road even when the damage is 'light'.

Cheers
Louis


Having first hand experience of crash damage and replacement part prices. I would agree that it can look prohibitive when pricing up. However, there are quite a few second hand parts on Prime, at a fraction of the UK dealer prices. I also think we as a forum can get a little carried away with what we believe things cost.
Facelift lights for instance are more like £1500 a pair, still not cheap.
The other contentious issue is where you get the repair done. Is there such a thing as an 'official repair' outside Honda JP?
As long as a restoration is done properly and catalogued, and provided the accident damage wasn't too severe to beggin with, I would concur with some of the other posters, that the car may actually be better.

Cheers,

James.