Help! Do NSXs have trouble turning in?

[ConorNZ]

Hi Guys

Need your expert help real quick. I test drove an NSX today (that yellow one that's been on the market for a while as I've given up hope of finding a facelift targa) and overall it was great, but the steering was really odd. Every time I turned into a corner, I had to adjust and turn the wheel a bit more. For some reason, I couldn't get the amount of lock right every time - it just wasn't intuitive. It felt like understeer, but it happened at any speed.

I've driven the first NSX without power steering and it was all perfect, so I'm slightly concerned there's something off with the geometry? It has a momo wheel - don't know if the smaller diameter would have any impact?

Or maybe it was just me...? The car is near B'ham and I'd be happy to pay an expert to go check it out for me.

Cheers
Conor

[AR]

Any chance the steering wheel was not centered?

[NoelWatson]

Hi Guys

Need your expert help real quick. I test drove an NSX today (that yellow one that's been on the market for a while as I've given up hope of finding a facelift targa) and overall it was great, but the steering was really odd. Every time I turned into a corner, I had to adjust and turn the wheel a bit more. For some reason, I couldn't get the amount of lock right every time - it just wasn't intuitive. It felt like understeer, but it happened at any speed.

I've driven the first NSX without power steering and it was all perfect, so I'm slightly concerned there's something off with the geometry? It has a momo wheel - don't know if the smaller diameter would have any impact?

Or maybe it was just me...? The car is near B'ham and I'd be happy to pay an expert to go check it out for me.

Cheers
Conor


Mine occasionally feels like that after driving a car with higher geared steering.

[Hagasan]

I was previously driving a Porsche 964RS, a Lancia Delta Integrale Evo and a Mitsubishi Lancer Evo. When I got my NSX I was slighly shocked at how much wheel twiddling was required to turn the 90 degree low speed bend in my street. Driving at speed etc is fine once you get used to it...it is a little lower geared than you might expect it to be but I wouldn't say the car has a ploughing on understeering tendency. I think it's more of a slower in/faster out kind of car when it comes to cornering. You kind of feel the balance point and work with it rather than just chucking it into corners. The car does have surprising high levels of grip when driven properly...Of course any car can feel completely wrong if the geometry is out. Have a good look to make sure nothing is bent or damaged causing any weird handling....

[NSX 2000]

Were the tyres of all the same make and type?

[NoelWatson]

I was previously driving a Porsche 964RS, a Lancia Delta Integrale Evo and a Mitsubishi Lancer Evo. When I got my NSX I was slighly shocked at how much wheel twiddling was required to turn the 90 degree low speed bend in my street. Driving at speed etc is fine once you get used to it...it is a little lower geared than you might expect it to be but I wouldn't say the car has a ploughing on understeering tendency. I think it's more of a slower in/faster out kind of car when it comes to cornering. You kind of feel the balance point and work with it rather than just chucking it into corners. The car does have surprising high levels of grip when driven properly...Of course any car can feel completely wrong if the geometry is out. Have a good look to make sure nothing is bent or damaged causing any weird handling....

Agree with that. One thought is that it could be the LSD being slightly tighter in the more recent cars giving slight push - I notice that sometimes, but tends to be when I have got on power too early coming out of a corner. Get it right and you feel the attitude of the car shift slighly as the rears scribe a slightly wider line.

[ConorNZ]

Thanks guys - all the tyres were the same and pretty new (Bridgestone Potenzas). Hagasan - what you said sounds rigt - it does feel like the steering rack is just slower than what I'm used to. It wasn't a plowing on understeer, just that I had to constantly turn the wheel another 5-10 degrees once I'd entered a corner to actually turn sharp enough. Was definitely more noticeable on the sharper corners, but the sensation was present whether I was pushing the car or driving normally.

Can anyone recommend a specialist in Birmingham to have a look at the car? Just in case anyone doesn't know which one I'm talking about, it's this one:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1995-Honda-NSX-Targa_W0QQitemZ280628261078QQcategoryZ18206QQcmdZV iewItemQQ_trksidZp5197.m7QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DLVI%26 itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D1%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3 D8514745443985208452

[TheQuietOne]

Thanks guys - all the tyres were the same and pretty new (Bridgestone Potenzas). Hagasan - what you said sounds rigt - it does feel like the steering rack is just slower than what I'm used to. It wasn't a plowing on understeer, just that I had to constantly turn the wheel another 5-10 degrees once I'd entered a corner to actually turn sharp enough. Was definitely more noticeable on the sharper corners, but the sensation was present whether I was pushing the car or driving normally.

Can anyone recommend a specialist in Birmingham to have a look at the car? Just in case anyone doesn't know which one I'm talking about, it's this one:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1995-Honda-NSX-Targa_W0QQitemZ280628261078QQcategoryZ18206QQcmdZV iewItemQQ_trksidZp5197.m7QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DLVI%26 itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D1%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3 D8514745443985208452

Hi,

I knew Steve in Tamworth who owned the car for a few years and had the story of who he bought it from and what he spent on it, in case the bills haven't followed with the car. I will PM you my mobile number if you want a chat. I work about 5 minutes from where the car is now, I owned one for 4 years but I'm not a mechanical expert. I have driven about 6 over the years, including a '96 targa so I'm happy to have a look with you if you like.

Cheers,

Matt.

[ConorNZ]

Hi matt - thanks for your time earlier. I think guys that, as this was my first experience with the power-steering NSX, I was just not used to the slower steering rack. Now just have to decide what car to buy...

[Nick Graves]

It's probably too much caster on at least one side. That's something I've got to get sorted (seized adjusters), but braking deeper into left-hand turns gets round it for now.

Another thing that makes it worse is cross-toe at the rear; it creates a thrust angle & makes the car more oversteery one way than t'other. That might be your problem if initial turn-in seems consistent.

I'd recommend a good alignment (an often relatively inexpensive 'fix') if you otherwise like the car & see where you go from there...

[Nick Graves]

Actually, I've also realised the yellow one's a -T and presume your earlier one wasn't.

In which case; they all do that, sir!

There's a palpable disconnect with the -T's steering that isn't present in coupes. The S2000 has much greater torsional rigidity (plus a really quick rack ratio) and it shows.

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

For the clarification, the steering gear ratio on the EPS model is higher (quicker) than the non-power steering one.


Hence, if you turn the steering to the same angle, the tyre turning angle will be greater on the EPS model than the non-EPS one.


If you test drive EPS and non-EPS back to back, you will notice the quicker feel on the EPS model.

Happens regularly when I finished test driving the EPS model and then jumped in to my non-EPS NSX.

Kaz

[ConorNZ]

Actually, I've also realised the yellow one's a -T and presume your earlier one wasn't.

In which case; they all do that, sir!

There's a palpable disconnect with the -T's steering that isn't present in coupes. The S2000 has much greater torsional rigidity (plus a really quick rack ratio) and it shows.

Ah damn it! Yes, the earlier car was a coupe. I knew there would be a loss of rigidity, but didn't think it would be quite that bad. Nevertheless, I will still go with the targa, as I just can't get enough of open-air motoring. It adds a lot to the experience when you're just cruising along (which let's face it, is how cars get driven most of the time). The S2k was a brilliant car and designed to be roofless from the start.

As an update, the RAC are doing a check on Wednesday, but otherwise I've pretty much done the deal with the dealership. Let's hope the RAC doesn't find anything untoward re steering. Hope to pay for it and pick it up on Thursday, and then proceed to drive it to the South of France on Friday!

[Nick Graves]

Excellent - best of luck with it.

TBH, the -T (except the last) had softer spring rates than the coupes, so some of the lost motion probably disappears in increased roll angles too.

I would suggest that dialling out some caster (if the b uggers move!) and rear toe-in plus some racy chassis braces might be a way of alleviating it a bit if it bothers you.

I think it was Papalazarou who said braces improve the car's feel & the S2000 desperately needs chassis braces to fix its 'numb' steering & breakaway feel.

[NSXGB]

Braces make the car feel a lot more compliant up front. I found the front strut brace made more difference than the 'R' bars. Getting the 'R' front anti roll bar will also sharpen up turn in. Both mods can be had at a very reasonable cost too, which is nice...

[markc]

For the clarification, the steering gear ratio on the EPS model is higher (quicker) than the non-power steering one.


Hence, if you turn the steering to the same angle, the tyre turning angle will be greater on the EPS model than the non-EPS one.


If you test drive EPS and non-EPS back to back, you will notice the quicker feel on the EPS model.

Happens regularly when I finished test driving the EPS model and then jumped in to my non-EPS NSX.

Kaz


Is it quicker around the straight ahead or not though? The pic in the brochure shows it the other way around with the quick part of the rack either side of the centre. I always thought that looked wrong and agree that EPS (manual) cars feel "dartier" than non EPS ones suggesting to me that the quick part of the rack is the centre.

Here's the pic from the brochure from the link on Prime... http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Technical/eps.htm

9002


I found the front strut brace made more difference than the 'R' bars. Getting the 'R' front anti roll bar will also sharpen up turn in. Both mods can be had at a very reasonable cost too, which is nice...

What they really need is a roof brace a.k.a a roof :laugh: Only kidding T-boys, I'm just jealous 'cos the sun's been out lately :)

Cheers

Mark

[Nick Graves]

:D

One would think that stiffening up the front crush can would simply transfer any movement to the passenger cell, but I think the braces stop the geometry getting all crossed up which is why the braces improve feel. Obviously, they may work somewhat differently on a -T from a Coupe.

Marc, I have a slightly different solution to summer weather & low-geared steering. It was a lovely day for S2000s!

[ConorNZ]

I fondly recall my time with the S2000 in New Zealand, where the summer was somewhat more reliable! :D

[havoc]

It was a lovely day for S2000s!

Grumble grumble mumble...too many nice cars for one person...mumble grumble! :( ;)

[Senninha]

Hi Conor,

Well it does sound as though you've found your NSX .. and it wasn't for the want of trying .. well done for sticking with your dreams!

The change in feel you refer to I can agree with having driven both coupe and T models. I wanted the T as I was an ex S2k and Elise owner and enjoy the open air motoring (as I did today!!). I also appreciate the more compliant suspension travel given the condition of roads here and across Europe, but the T does lack a small amount of feel (mine is EPS 3.2).

However, after much research and discussion with knowledgeable members here and abroad I've adjusted mine to regain the coupe feel without compromising the T cruising comfort. Here's what I'm running on my NSX-T:

NSX-R front chassis bars
NSX-R front anti roll bar

and heres the important part ...

Type S rear anti roll bar.

With the front end done I had the steering feel I was after (it actually feels more like the Elise than an NSX coupe), but, and it was a big but, the back just didn't feel planted. The answer is the Type S RARB which brings back the balance of the chassis.

I'm sure you could take this set up further if you wish too, but for me this works really well, the NSX feels planted yet chuckable, retains it comfort and when you want to play it lets you know whats going on really well.

Hope all goes well with the RAC checks and I wish many happy smiles of NSX motoring ....

regards, Paul

[ConorNZ]

Thanks Paul and thanks everyone else for your help and patience.

I decided I couldn't hold out for a facelift targa any more, as life is too short for "maybes"! So I will keep my eye out for one, and if luck has it, maybe one day I will be able to upgrade. In the interim, I am one of the few people that actually likes the yellow (a lot) so it's a great compromise for me.

One further technical question - the windscreen had a scratch on the inside (looks like someone with a diamond ring tried to wipe some condensation away) and the dealer tells me it is too deep to polish out. We're at a bit of a cross roads here - can anyone tell me what a new screen will cost, to put some perspective on it?

Thanks again
Conor

[nobby]

repalacement windscreen from Honda is NOT cheap ... well over a grand!

i have a few issues with my windscreen but will leave it till i get a crack and then get it replaced via my insurance company

Glad you bought a yellow one Conor, they look great!



Thanks Paul and thanks everyone else for your help and patience.

I decided I couldn't hold out for a facelift targa any more, as life is too short for "maybes"! So I will keep my eye out for one, and if luck has it, maybe one day I will be able to upgrade. In the interim, I am one of the few people that actually likes the yellow (a lot) so it's a great compromise for me.

One further technical question - the windscreen had a scratch on the inside (looks like someone with a diamond ring tried to wipe some condensation away) and the dealer tells me it is too deep to polish out. We're at a bit of a cross roads here - can anyone tell me what a new screen will cost, to put some perspective on it?

Thanks again
Conor

[ConorNZ]

repalacement windscreen from Honda is NOT cheap ... well over a grand!

Yikes! :eek: Let's hope the dealer has some magical new fix it idea. It would bug me seeing that scratch in my line of sight all the time!

[Hagasan]

Yikes! :eek: Let's hope the dealer has some magical new fix it idea. It would bug me seeing that scratch in my line of sight all the time!

Potential MOT failure?? Could the dealer not apply his insurance fix?!?

[ConorNZ]

Both arguments I have made with them. They claim it isn't an MOT failure (but then I always wonder about "friendly" MOT stations) and don't want to cause their premiums to rise by claiming (but it's ok for mine to :no:).

Been offered a rare manual DB9 volante as well in showroom condition with a warranty at a reasonable price. If the NSX deal doesn't stick, I have a back up (albeit I would rather get the NSX).

[Senninha]

What about your 'friendly' RAC man ... can t you get him to say its an MOT failure ... surely this would put emphasis back onto the stealer?

[ConorNZ]

Just had a call from the friendly RAC man ... Best £275 ever spent. The guy appeared very knowledgeable and had even driven/inspected a number of NSXs before, so had some comparisons.

He agrees that the windscreen scratch should be dealt with by the dealer. But there are more problems than just cosmetic now. Not sure what the forum rules are about posting the issues with a specific car, but let’s just say that I won’t be travelling to Birmingham with a bank cheque tomorrow to collect a nice yellow NSX.

Totally gutted - I was really sold on the idea. Now I'm going to have to take my WRX down to France, which just won't be the same. Unless I buy the DB9, but I would rather not spend that much money frankly.

[ConorNZ]

P.S. Any mechanically minded people on here that I could PM the list of issues to and who could tell me if "they are all like that sir" or if I should walk away?

Would be great if someone was around this evening for a chat.

[nobby]

Kaz or Sudesh would be able to help out, if you contact them.

I am a tad shocked as I believe I enquired about that car last year if I am correct and there was quite a lot of servicing done and was mechanically sound.

I am not sure about forum rules in relation to issues, but if there are issues with the car I cannot see there being a problem in openly discussing them. This is a forum for NSX owners, people in the hunt for NSX's and there is nothing wrong with freedom of speech as long as it is not slanderous or untruthful. Thats my opinion anyway. If there are issues with the car, this does not imply any wrong doings with the dealer and you are not discussing the dealer but the car.

really gutted for you, thought you had found your Holy Grail ... as for the DB9 i absolutely adore Aston Martin's and I just lust after DB9's ... they are a dream car of mine so definitely not a mistake for you to purchase one of them. but i hear they are a car not without their problems either.

hope the issues you have found are easily fixed and does not deter you from buying ... but give Kaz and Sudesh a shout


P.S. Any mechanically minded people on here that I could PM the list of issues to and who could tell me if "they are all like that sir" or if I should walk away?

Would be great if someone was around this evening for a chat.

[ConorNZ]

Thanks for the suggestion. In summary, the key issues concerning me are:

· Significant noise/vibration coming from the rear brakes, which may be due to something having dislodged or debris/significant rust.
· Engine oil leaks: both from the top and bottom of the engine, one of which looks like it may be from the cam cover.
· Gearbox leaks: from around the gearbox which looks like a driveshaft seal and another higher up where the engine meets the gearbox.
· Clutch: dry bearing noise from the release bearing and is heavy for an NSX.
· Exhaust: split/cracked where the silencer meets the exit pipes on both sides of the exhaust right next to the welds (the welds themselves are intact).
· Cooling system: as the car was hot, RAC could not do a pressure check. However, the radiator was damp at the bottom, which may suggest an issue. Also the pipe running from the thermostat around the back of the engine is very badly corroded and may start leaking soon.

Excluding the above, it's still a 16 year old car in average condition with plenty of surface corrosion on suspension components etc. I agree it's had a lot spent on it in the past, but the biggest bill looked like some random Honda dealership taking advantage of a rich person rather than adding value...

You have to take into account of course that the car is 16 years old and has 59,000 miles, rather than being a 2005 car with 20,000 miles and is therefore price accordingly. But still. I'm not mechanically minded and would rather have a perfect car.

The DB9 is as-new and still has a year of Aston Martin premium warranty!! Would still rather have an NSX though... :(

[Justin]

This is a potentially pricey list, and quite unexpected from a dealership asking what is - after all - strong enough (though by no means ott) money for an NA1.

Just say no.

http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m3/feb2008/8/8/EF1931A0-09E2-245F-7E0B3A44A932256F.jpg

[ConorNZ]

Hi All

Thought you might like to hear the conclusion. The dealer is happy to go through the individual points with a mechanic, but if there's a lot of issues/cost, the deal could go south. Overall, I wanted a car today to go on holiday, so I've gone with the back up.

'Backup' is a different term to use for the car, which is a DB9 Volante with a manual shift! I'll be on the train to Birmingham shortly to pick it up, then it's off on holiday to the South of France tomorrow for Easter!

Will post a pic when I get a chance.

Thanks guys
Conor

[Geraint]

Shame, but I suppose a DB9 as a backup option is not so bad :)

Enjoy the trip, hope the weather holds for you :)

[Nick Graves]

Hi Conor,

Well it does sound as though you've found your NSX .. and it wasn't for the want of trying .. well done for sticking with your dreams!

The change in feel you refer to I can agree with having driven both coupe and T models. I wanted the T as I was an ex S2k and Elise owner and enjoy the open air motoring (as I did today!!). I also appreciate the more compliant suspension travel given the condition of roads here and across Europe, but the T does lack a small amount of feel (mine is EPS 3.2).

However, after much research and discussion with knowledgeable members here and abroad I've adjusted mine to regain the coupe feel without compromising the T cruising comfort. Here's what I'm running on my NSX-T:

NSX-R front chassis bars
NSX-R front anti roll bar

and heres the important part ...

Type S rear anti roll bar.

With the front end done I had the steering feel I was after (it actually feels more like the Elise than an NSX coupe), but, and it was a big but, the back just didn't feel planted. The answer is the Type S RARB which brings back the balance of the chassis.

I'm sure you could take this set up further if you wish too, but for me this works really well, the NSX feels planted yet chuckable, retains it comfort and when you want to play it lets you know whats going on really well.

Hope all goes well with the RAC checks and I wish many happy smiles of NSX motoring ....

regards, Paul

Perfect example of how mods need to work together sympathetically, in order to make a car better & not worse; an object lesson for many.

I shall bear that in mind for future reference. You can never have too many NSXs...

[Nick Graves]

Hi All

Thought you might like to hear the conclusion. The dealer is happy to go through the individual points with a mechanic, but if there's a lot of issues/cost, the deal could go south. Overall, I wanted a car today to go on holiday, so I've gone with the back up.

'Backup' is a different term to use for the car, which is a DB9 Volante with a manual shift! I'll be on the train to Birmingham shortly to pick it up, then it's off on holiday to the South of France tomorrow for Easter!

Will post a pic when I get a chance.

Thanks guys
Conor

Hope it all works out OK. I've absolutely nothing agaist Astons, but the NSX is rather more tempting...