NSX vs CSL

[olly22n]

Morning chaps.

Has anyone on here owned an NSX and a CSL, as these two cars are on my shortlist and wanted to know how they compare against each other.

I know they are very much different cars, but they both 'fit' my criteria;

In budget (£20-30k)
Glacial depreciation
Superb dynamics
Reasonable running costs (well, maybe not!)
Build quality (although this will be my main car, I will not be commuting in it and it will live outside!)
Scarcity

Over to you....


Oh and hello!

[havoc]

A friend of a friend owned a CSL, which I passengered in, and I've driven a standard M3. Not quite the detailed comparison, but:-
- CSL sounds even better than the NSX...
- ...ride quality leaves something to be desired though...
- ...and the cup-spec rubber is a liability in any sort of wet weather.
- CSL seats are hardcore racing buckets - even an average-build person will be snug in them. Could possibly make it harder on long-journeys, but DOES make it very secure around a circuit
- CSL interior looks more modern and typically Germanic quality, but probably won't wear any better.

...and of course the CSL is a car you can be a bit of a hooligan in (on std rubber, not on cup rubber), whereas the NSX is mid-engine'd 'precision' driving.



I'd say the CSL is a proper road-and-track animal, genuinely hardcore, whereas the NSX is a graceful GT/supercar designed for a comfy long schlep to the south of France and then some enjoyment around the local roads.

[NSX 2000]

Hello and welcome

IIRC Rob is your man, I think he either has or had a CSL

Rob_Fenn

[Hagasan]

Hi, that's another Ollie varient...that's three now! Talking of which one of the other Ollie's may have a very nice nice 2000/01 car up for sale soon.

Having driven them I think the cars can be a bit variable. I did consider one on my way to an NSX. Blatted a left hooker down the Autobahn a few years ago. The ones I had a look at over here had an inconsistent horrible slipping clutch sensation when driven hard. I think it is a known issue called "clutch slur" by those in the know.....Nice cars all the same....but not the best paddle shift cars in my opinion...

[sky high]

hi there.. good choice in your 2 cars. a friend of mine had a grey 2004 csl which he had for 5 years from new and i have a 2003 nsx manual, ive driven both these cars back to back also.. performance wise they are identical 0-100mph 10.9 as quoted by autocar but the nsx has a slightly better top end, the csl is quite the driver focused car with the seats and steering wheel smg setup but then so is the nsx! i personally would rather have an nsx as it looks alot more special than a e46 looking m3.. but the csl has its advatages too being 4 seater and big boot etc etc, i think noise wise the csl wins just a small bit on this the thing can really bark and its soo loud too!! the nsx to me though is the car to have as its soo special too look at and even talk about! everyone respects them! to drive they are more confortable than a csl and you sit soo low to the ground with amazing visibility which for me enhances the overall experience! both great cars in their own way and collectors pieces too, but in my opinion the nsx has the edge on the slighty tuned lightweight m3... :)

[NoelWatson]

hi there.. good choice in your 2 cars. a friend of mine had a grey 2004 csl which he had for 5 years from new and i have a 2003 nsx manual, ive driven both these cars back to back also.. performance wise they are identical 0-100mph 10.9 as quoted by autocar but the nsx has a slightly better top end,

I would be surprised if the NSX could keep up with a CSL.

[havoc]

I would be surprised if the NSX could keep up with a CSL.

My 3.0 is pretty much bang on M3 cabrio pace - had a play with one on ~4-5 miles of DC, and whoever got the throttle pinned first pulled out a slight gap, effectively. So I'd imagine a 3.2 will have the same relationship with the CSL, gearshift excepted.

I think the BM has slightly better bhp/tonne but the NSX has a better CdA. Even if the BM is marginally quicker it's a couple of %, so not enough to worry about...

[jaytip]

My 3.0 is pretty much bang on M3 cabrio pace - had a play with one on ~4-5 miles of DC, and whoever got the throttle pinned first pulled out a slight gap, effectively. So I'd imagine a 3.2 will have the same relationship with the CSL, gearshift excepted.

I think the BM has slightly better bhp/tonne but the NSX has a better CdA. Even if the BM is marginally quicker it's a couple of %, so not enough to worry about...
I dont think BHP/tonne and CDA,matters.Take the new Audi RS3 for example,less power than the CSL but it has been recorded doing a 0-60mph in 4.1 seconds.That will smash both the CSL and the NSX and it not exactly aerodynamic.

[sky high]

no my wee sister has an e46 m3 convertible smg and the nsx is a different league in performance compared to it, just feels alot more sharper than the heavy vert! but me and my friend numerous times put the csl and nsx up side by side and its identical the whole way up to higher speeds even from 1st gear or so was always good fun lol!.. i always thought the csl would have been the faster car but it just isnt quite a few times i actually started to pull abit towards the highher gears possibly aerodynamics there?? .. i also have an e60 m5 v10 and the honda in my opinion would still put up a good fight to approx 3rd gear or so, very good considering it has nearly half the bhp :)

[NoelWatson]

My 3.0 is pretty much bang on M3 cabrio pace - had a play with one on ~4-5 miles of DC, and whoever got the throttle pinned first pulled out a slight gap, effectively. So I'd imagine a 3.2 will have the same relationship with the CSL, gearshift excepted.

I think the BM has slightly better bhp/tonne but the NSX has a better CdA. Even if the BM is marginally quicker it's a couple of %, so not enough to worry about...

The key here is what state the M3's engine is in - a number of them are down on power for various number of reasons - most of them easily rectifiable. For example, my friends E46 M3 recently put out 297bhp @ SRR - in this instance, the air fuel ratio wasn't dropping as the revs increased, indicating that the MAF sensor was knackered. The owner of SRR had an E46 M3 that he kept in top fettle (~338bhp), and it was slightly quicker than our modified 02+s at Bruntingthorpe, so I would expect a CSL in good nick to be 2-3 mph quicker still.

[NoelWatson]

I dont think BHP/tonne and CDA,matters.Take the new Audi RS3 for example,less power than the CSL but it has been recorded doing a 0-60mph in 4.1 seconds.That will smash both the CSL and the NSX and it not exactly aerodynamic.

CdA won't matter too much at lower speeds. In the RS3s case, it has the advantage of 4wd traction, launch control, seamless shifts, and (I guess), a pretty flat power curve (electronically controlled)

[NSX 2000]

CdA won't matter too much at lower speeds. In the RS3s case, it has the advantage of 4wd traction, launch control, seamless shifts, and (I guess), a pretty flat power curve (electronically controlled)

Don't forget gearing.

[markc]

As has been said a few times E46 M3 vs NSX 3.2 = dead heat in straight line performance terms.

Apart from the obvious 2 seater vs 4 seater differance, I don't think it's fair to compare the "regular" NSX with the CSL, the CSL is far closer to the NSX-R in both spirit and execution.

I'm a big fan of the E46 M3 but the CSL is a non starter for me because of the SMG only gearbox which is hopeless in any situation other than full on attack mode. The run out M3 CS model is the one for me... CSL steering rack, CSL brakes, CSL look (they're a touch heavier) wheels AND the option of a manual gearbox :)

Cheers

Mark

[havoc]

Agreed that the CS is the driver's choice, certainly for a 'regular use' car, but the CSL is the investors choice - these things WILL be classics.

Also agree that 0-60 stats are utterly pointless - the NSX is somewhere between 5.2s and 5.6s, which suggests it's miles behind e.g. an RS3 and barely on the pace of a Focus RS. In reality, even a 3.0 NSX will demolish the Focus once on the move and keep the RS3 at bay.

IMHO power delivery and throttle response are more important (and here you don't get much better than the CSL or NSX), and that indefinable 'dynamics' matters more on the open road too...unless you're just a straight-line "point-and-squirt" chap, in which case the NSX probably doesn't even register...

[NoelWatson]

In reality, even a 3.0 NSX will demolish the Focus once on the move

I have had same debate on other forums - people believed Ford's claim of 163mph top end - the thing has aerodynamics of a brick, and was almost 20mph behind us at VMax.

[m666 edd]

I have had same debate on other forums - people believed Ford's claim of 163mph top end - the thing has aerodynamics of a brick, and was almost 20mph behind us at VMax.

Speaking of which, anyone going vmax this time around?

[AR]

In reality all this is utter bollix as one e you throw some £££ at any car it can demolish anything.

Go for what you LIKE.

My best friend has a 1989 M635 Motorsport that he has restore to the point of powder coated everything that could be powdercoated underneath. Yet it does nothing for me even if it is worth a fortune now a days.

Cars are subjective FFS.

Since about 1995 NSX=nice looking GT.

[NoelWatson]

Speaking of which, anyone going vmax this time around?

I think we will need some new firepower before going again.

[AR]

Someone with a FI NSX needs to go anbd have some fun there. :)

[markc]

Someone with a FI NSX needs to go anbd have some fun there. :)

They're probably scared :P

[NoelWatson]

They're probably scared :P

I think we;ve had one - around 3-4mph quicker than than an 02+ with intake exhaust IIRC

[NSX 2000]

I think we;ve had one - around 3-4mph quicker than than an 02+ with intake exhaust IIRC

Silver Suffer went in his red one end of last year, but might want to take his silver/white one this time.


Speaking of which, anyone going vmax this time around?

They have already had one this year, do you know if they are having another?

Paul

[m666 edd]

They have already had one this year, do you know if they are having another?

Paul

I obviously won't give exact details but look on the pistonheads forum and register your interest if you want to go. Not sure if there are any spaces left though. I'm going!

[Marky]

sorry for late reply, just back from Italy. I have owned both. I sold my black CSL around 18 months ago. It was a great great car. The engine sounded amazing, like a Formula 1 car on full throttle. It scared pedestrians!! I live in London and found the suspension too hard. Going over sleeping policemen was a NIGHTMARE. The interior was first class. Suede steering wheel felt amazing to hold. SMG II was a little jerky but you get used to it and you can adjust it to be less aggressive. I am on my second NA2 NSX and the mid engined set up feels a lot more like a supercar. The NSX handles speed bumps with ease too. Both are great cars. If you need 4 seats go for the CSL with low miles. If your budget is maximum £30k go for the CSL. If you can be patient and save up another £5k - £10k then wait and keep an eye out for a 2002 / 2003 NSX. Good luck.

[Rob_Fenn]

As mentioned, i had a CSL. I sold it about 2 years ago now!

I have to say, it was a very special car. It is wrong to think of it as an M3, in reality it is a completely different car to drive. It feels like a genuine race car for the road, with the bucket seats (same as the NSX-R, but without harness holes) and swathes of carbon both inside and out. I thought the ride was bearable, the 'jiggle' just added to the race car feel.

The downside of that is that it is a bit of a license loser, which is why i got rid. It was temperamental from cold and generally acted like an awkward teenager unless you were ragging it. And although i appreciated its understated look, if you want a car for people to stare at, the CSL isn't it. I heard a guy recently went to a Goodwood Breakfast meet in a CSL and was turned away! Unfortunately, the familiarity of the M3 makes it blend into the background. You'd argue a typical M3 owners image isn't exactly aspirational either...

Which is where the NSX is completely different of course. It is a very rare car, and will put a smile on the face of any car enthusiast. It is not as quick as a CSL, in any discipline, but is still very much an engaging car to drive and also looks like something special! The NSX has a history, an aura... something hard to beat. In truth the two cars are hard to compare because the CSL is clearly more track focused. Either choice is a good one!

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/robfenn/P1070106.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/robfenn/P1070115.jpg

[NSX-FAN]

A CSL got turned away? the person from Goodwood was clearly not a real petrol head then as they would have realised how rare the CSL is. Lovely pictures by the way.

[Rob_Fenn]

Thanks...

Something i did forget to mention was that the CSL wasn't that reliable, especially considering it had only covered 16k. Simply driving it home threw up the first problem, with a gearbox sensor going. The induction flap (which moves above certain RPM or with Sport button) also got stuck at a certain angle, which on the rolling road was shown to cost me about 40bhp! In the end i removed it completely, and ended up with the most powerful stock CSL tested (the only one to meet the OEM power quoted!). There are also things like the door sill plaques that go horrible quickly... so i would always get one with a warranty. Fortunately the BMW warranty prices are much more reasonable nowadays and you can pay monthly too. CSL specific parts are hard to get...

[havoc]

A CSL got turned away? the person from Goodwood was clearly not a real petrol head then as they would have realised how rare the CSL is. Lovely pictures by the way.

At Supercar Sunday we found a CLK-Black in the outside car park! And what appeared to be a 964 RS (saw front only...couldn't be certain)...

I actually parked about 2 cars from the CLK, after I got turned away - turned out there were already 3 NSXs in there (2 more also got in later, much to my chagrin), but the chap at the gate didn't care to explain himself as to why he was turning me away, just got shirty. Interestingly there were already >20 Fezzas and a similar # of 911s. Oh, and a Focus RS, an Escort RS Cossie, several Elises/Exiges, and then later on some really random stuff that MUST have sneaked in (e.g. boggo 123d, MkIV Escort cabrio). The guys at Goodwood don't seem to care, TBH. Not unless you're that Peter chap with the Agera, 599 GTO and one-off Zonda - some chap in a blazer and Panama was literally fawning over him...rather embarassing to watch actually...

[NSX-FAN]

You mean Peter Saywell, the stuck up tw*t, fair play he is minted but he is so up his ars3 it is untrue. Goodwood sound pretty snotty, not been myself but would love to go to Supercar Sunday next year.

[Marky]

The CSL doesn't get anywhere near as much attention as an NSX. That's because it looks very similar to the standard M3, especially in black when you can't see the carbon roof. I loved driving it and actually miss it. Both CSL and NSX are great cars. Maybe buy the CSL, get it out of your system and in a year or two buy an NSX.

[Marky]

another photo of my M3 CSL. You can see how it could be mistaken for a normal M3 by most people.

[Silver Surfer]

another photo of my M3 CSL. You can see how it could be mistaken for a normal M3 by most people.

I thought it was a 320d....;):laugh:


Nice car!

SS