NSX badge tipped to reappear at Detroit motor show

[AB5150]

Was having a read on-line today & found this ........

(http://www.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/news/article.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10771145)http://www.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/news/article.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10771145

[NoelWatson]

http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/275917/tokyo_show_honda_nsx_returns.html

[nobby]

more on this today from PH

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=24860

[WhyOne?]

I am pleased to read that the engine is being put in the right place.

Whilst no great surprise, the electric gubbins are a disappointment.

[NSXGB]

...a few more cylinders would be nice too...

[NoelWatson]

...a few more cylinders would be nice too...


If it made it sound like this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxmlpfNctbc

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFB6FfaNQ40

then yes, but most of the modern V8 Ferraris I hear sound very artificial.

[Nick Graves]

I am pleased to read that the engine is being put in the right place.

Whilst no great surprise, the electric gubbins are a disappointment.

Unnecessary cylinders aren't really Honda's thang.

The electrickery is (according to Honda) lighter than the extremely heavy SH-AWD system used by the Rlegendo & the GT5000. Believe that if you will, but its ability to regen brake one front wheel & pass the current to another might eliminate the NSX's turn-in understeer and make it even better.

It might also be a PoS, but I'd reserve judgment until the thing appears.

Probably driven by Jesus H Christ & accompanied by four horsemen...

[TheSebringOne]

Lets wait & see but remember it is a concept.

[NoelWatson]

Believe that if you will, but its ability to regen brake one front wheel & pass the current to another might eliminate the NSX's turn-in understeer and make it even better.




I'm not sure that would improve understeer - need to brake the inner rear as Porsche etc do.

[Lankstarr]

A bit late to the party:

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/new-honda-nsx-detroit-motor-show-2011-12-12

[Lankstarr]

A bit late to the party:

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/new-honda-nsx-detroit-motor-show-2011-12-12

[markc]

I think 4wd using leccy motors to drive one end was inevitable but I'm thankful that the layout is the correct way round i.e. engine behind the driver :) A V6 is a good choice both in terms of the sound it can make and that it links back to the original. The challenge will be to keep the weight down!

How about really small turbocharged V6, say 1.6Ltr (F1 anyone), and hope Honda come up with a much lighter design with their interpretation of the dual clutch gearbox. I'd like to see them use lightweight composites (carbonfibre etc) in the structure rather than just decoratively and some beautiful forged aluminum suspension components again. The EV side will kill the all up weight but whether I like it or not it's the way forward for mainstream manufacturers.

Handling and ride will be as much down to the software engineers as the mechanical engineers because as well as the integration between petrol and electric power they will be responsible for the power steering, stability control systems, damping and possibly active aero components. We'll see :dunno:

Cheers

Mark

[Nick Graves]

I'm not sure that would improve understeer - need to brake the inner rear as Porsche etc do.

Might also make for interesting steering if people put silly-offset wheels on their cars, but it's the way Honda's eSH-AWD works. The rear end is a sort of V6 DCT version of the CR-Z's IMA system, so you could configure 3-wheel regen. braking on the way in & 3WD on the way out, to neutralise oversteer.

[havoc]

I presume that a DCT 'box precludes fitment of a proper LSD, a-la our steed? I ask because I've not read about a single E-diff equipped car which has performed as well as a proper mechanical one. But software is cheaper than hardware, so I won't bet against this having the same.

...of course, as Nick says, positive torque-vectoring via the front motors might be rather useful, IF it's set-up properly (manettino-style? steadily more aggressive...)

[Nick Graves]

I cannot see why you couldn't fit an LSD to a DCT. The clutch engagement gets confused anyway, as some of the neighbours' vages frequently demonstrate.

Mind you, Evoras & stuff seem OK with a FRED-LSD to me. The NSX's seems to light up the TCS on tight turn getaways and kills the power.

[Nick Graves]

In fact, the biggest concern would be flattening the battery on track/the twisties.

Unless it uses a Wayne KERS-style ultracapacitor.

[NoelWatson]

Might also make for interesting steering if people put silly-offset wheels on their cars, but it's the way Honda's eSH-AWD works.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SH-AWD

I can't find anything on here that mentions vectoring at the front end in a four wheel drive application. I'm not sure why you would want to either.

[Nick Graves]

Sorry Noel, you're a generation behind the rest of us! I said eSH-AWD:

5. A high-efficiency, high output electric SH-AWD hybrid system which combines superior driving and environmental performance.
・A new hybrid system, electric SH-AWD, was developed for large-sized vehicles. By combining a 3.5L, V6 engine with this hybrid system, acceleration equivalent to V8 engines, as well as fuel efficiency equal or superior to in-line 4-cylinder engines were realized.
・An electric 4WD system with independent 20kW+ motors on both sides for the rear wheels combines a 7-speed dual clutch transmission system with a built-in 30kW+ high-efficiency motor with the engine.
・By mounting a high-performance lithium-ion battery and optimally controlling the front and rear motors, a new hybrid system with high fuel efficiency and output was realized.
・By mounting two independent motors in the rear and employing a newly developed bilateral torque adjustable control system, incredibly tight “on-the-rail” cornering is realized, providing a stable ride for all daily driving environments.

That's the application for the RLegendo (to replace the current car with the heavy mechanical system you describe) and they'll basically 'reverse' it to make a MR layout.

Also:

"Acura wouldn't tell us anything about the engine or powertrain, but off the record they were quick to tell us that the announced Electric SH-AWD system with 3.5L DI V6 was clearly not potent enough for this car. It should be noted that THAT powertrain, with its 7-speed dual clutch gearbox and 3 electric motors, develops a peak output in the neighborhood of 400hp. Obviously with the MR layout, Honda has to engineer a very specific setup for this car, and we're assuming it will essentially be a reversed layout compared to the FF-oriented design which was revealed previously.

We are hopeful that it will receive a very special high output, high revving gasoline engine that is fitting of the NSX heritage, while leveraging the electric motors and onboard battery to deliver on the "smart luxury" promise of excellent fuel economy. Acura told us that they would be releasing more information and details about this car at the upcoming Detroit Auto Show."

[NoelWatson]

That's the application for the RLegendo (to replace the current car with the heavy mechanical system you describe) and they'll basically 'reverse' it to make a MR layout.




I'm not convinced it will be as simple as reversing it - I can't see how vectoring would work in a MR setup through the front wheels - guess time will tell. Of more concern is that Honda is going to direct injection. Have they solved the carbon buildup issues......

EDIT: Seems Porsche have it working

http://www.futurecars.com/news/hybrid-cars/porsche-shows-918-spyder-with-flywheel-hybrid-kers

[Nick Graves]

Exactly - it's only the same as braking the NSX into a corner to load up the front end & quell understeer - only more sophisticated.

Those who move away from centre-point steering geometry with hellawheels will certainly notice it though!

Porsche's friction-drive-toy system seems crude; a battery/ultracap combo ought to work better. And Honda has its IMA to help regeneration.

The DI is interesting. Unlike Toyota's belt n' braces approach of retaining indirect injection for low-load conditions, Honda has apparently done something with the EGR/PCV systems which are the cause of the issue. Obviously they ain't telling just yet.

I dunno, using the atkinson cycle to 'quench' the inlet valves, or recycling gases by leaving the exhausts open for the first part of the inlet stroke? Storing them up in a big balloon?

[NoelWatson]

Exactly - it's only the same as braking the NSX into a corner to load up the front end & quell understeer - only more sophisticated.

Those who move away from centre-point steering geometry with hellawheels will certainly notice it though!

Porsche's friction-drive-toy system seems crude; a battery/ultracap combo ought to work better. And Honda has its IMA to help regeneration.

The DI is interesting. Unlike Toyota's belt n' braces approach of retaining indirect injection for low-load conditions, Honda has apparently done something with the EGR/PCV systems which are the cause of the issue. Obviously they ain't telling just yet.

I dunno, using the atkinson cycle to 'quench' the inlet valves, or recycling gases by leaving the exhausts open for the first part of the inlet stroke? Storing them up in a big balloon?

So the next question I would have is - why don't Honda go the whole way and remove the direct link from engine to wheels? Don't they do that with the Volt? Was also wondering how they get around the unsprung mass issues of having the motors in the hub...

[Nick Graves]

So the next question I would have is - why don't Honda go the whole way and remove the direct link from engine to wheels? Don't they do that with the Volt? Was also wondering how they get around the unsprung mass issues of having the motors in the hub...

Good questions;

The Volt uses a Toyota-licensed engine & emotor vs emotor CVT system - CVTs aren't very good for sporty cars. People hate the 'slipping' feeling. Honda has a system for the Accord like that, but with a direct engine to wheels drive:

4. A two-motor hybrid system which realizes top-of-industry efficiency.
・A two-motor hybrid system featuring top-of-industry efficiency enhancing driving performance and reduced CO2 emissions has been newly developed.
・Special lithium-ion battery and charger is employed to enable mounting on plug-in hybrid vehicles. ・Mid-sized vehicles equipped with this system are scheduled to begin production, starting with the plug-in hybrid model in 2012 and the hybrid model in 2013.
・Three driving modes allowing for optimal efficiency for various driving environments were developed; an “EV driving mode” for urban environments, a “hybrid driving mode” using electricity generated by the motor, and a “engine-connected driving mode” where the engine and tires are mechanically connected during high-speed cruising.
・Combination with a high-output 120kW motor allows for superior environmental performance and driving enjoyment.



They don't use hub motors for the reason you state - the two are in a sort of diff casing & use driveshafts.

[Senninha]

All,

Evo and Auto Express are running stories on the new 'NSX' this week. Evo has artist impression but A E has what looks to be actual photos of the new coupe . . . And it looks really good IMO

Regards, Paul

[Silver Surfer]

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/276454/new_400bhp_honda_nsx.html

10840
10841

Not quiet what I had expected...the sequel may not live up to the original.

SS

[Senninha]

Not quiet what I had expected...the sequel may not live up to the original.

SS

Now that's strange ... I saw this in the mag and thought it looked OK ... Seeing it here and especially in the rear view, it looks like a flattened Dodge Charger ... Just what the US Market is looking for ...

So will wait till seeing in the metal

Regards, Paul

[NSXGB]

I quite like it....probably end up nothing like that in the end. Hint of R8 in there too.
Do they give any indication of estimated price?

[TheSebringOne]

Theres a different looking picture in this month's Evo.

Looks ok, a bit more technical detail give, especially how the new drive train
is being tried out on an Accord!

[AR]

I only mentioned it ages ago lol!

[havoc]

That AE set of images looks like an Americanised R8 - and given the R8 is now 4 years old, and the "new NSX" is at least 12months from launch, that's NOT a good thing - the car will look dated at launch!

[britlude]

am i the only one that doesn't want it called an nsx?

[Nick Graves]

It's only an artist's impression and apparently isn't terrible acurate - especially around the flying buttresses.

[Hagasan]

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/front_website/gallery.php?o=0&id=468601

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/273565/honda_nsx_returns.html#ixzz1ZuSZ0OaK

[AR]

Well it wont get confused wth an MR2 now will it!

[NoelWatson]

Metcalfe talking in latest EVO how he thinks NSX "mania" will boost prices of the original

[Senninha]

am i the only one that doesn't want it called an nsx?

I'm with you on this and have said so many times .... Mark had a nice twist on the theme, something like FSX I think, for Future Sports eXperience ...

regards, Paul

[havoc]

Metcalfe talking in latest EVO how he thinks NSX "mania" will boost prices of the original

Possible...but don't expect THAT much of an effect...the car's not that far apart from the equivalent 993s* at the moment. Looked at vs the other '90s classics', the car is a bargain...however looked at vs e.g. the Porsche Boxster**, the car is badly overpriced.

Re: naming - whatever it is WON'T be an NSX, but hopefully will, as Noel suggests, add a modern halo to our cars. I'm not that worried.



* Ignore F-cars - they've got a cachet out of all proportion to their ability.

** Which has broadly the same performance / practicality / running costs.

[Senninha]

I only mentioned it ages ago lol!

So how long have you had your order in with the local dealer Ary?

[AR]

Everytime I tell them to take my money they refuse!

[PeteM]

Personally I think Honda would be doing an injustice to the NSX by badging the replacment with the same name. The NSX was a break through point in automotive history in both its design and driveability. The good thing about the car was it's lack of computer interference in relation to handling. Yes it has a crude traction control and ABS system but the chassis and suspension set up was it's crowning glory. The NSX was a drivers car and today there is not a great deal out there that hasn't got a computer to improve the handling or make the car safer to drive. Designers can get away with a cars poor weight distribution or balance as they know a computer boffin can program it out of the car by the way of differential braking, fly by wire throttle and now even electric steering. Motor manufacturers now want to build safe cars that have "green credentials" to please Goverments, the fact that electric hybrid cars have a larger enviromental footprint than an opposite convential petrol car doesn't matter its the PR face that counts. To sum it all up what I am trying to say is that for me true drivers cars are becoming a thing of the past, in this new world of computer cars the programmer is king (even in the McLaren MP4-12C, Ferrari 458 and Nissan GTR). For me the only new car of real interest will be the Toyota GT 86 because it is being pushed as a "drivers car", even then I am not keen on its looks. Will have to wait and see if the Toyota's "drivers car" credentials ring true.

[Nick Graves]

They can plaster over it, but a car with intrinsically good geometry & balance will shine through.

It's why some allegedly good Germans aren't much fun with the FREDs on and a nightmare with them off.

Or why some people think that FWD-only Preludes are very good, without the brilliance of 4WS (which, the NA NSX was meant to have) and Integras likewise.

I mean, I agree about the 86 (apart from the large KPI which causes a lot of jacking when lock is applied; maybe I've been a Honda whore too long) and the KISS principle, but the NA's FREDs and chassis were pretty advanced in its day, too. They are now commonplace, so there is no way Honda could produce a 'me too' Sniff Petrol shed supercar; the brand has no kudos, unless the new one is bloody good. I'd not knock the electrical SH-AWD without trying it, first.

As long as it goes alright (& satisfies the green mugs & those profiteering from the religion) then that's fine by me.

They can call it what they like AFAIAC*; just build the bloody thing and not just Brios and Arias & Sh itties.



*That acronym is not a suggested name; I'd think of something faar ruder.

[jaytip]

I mean, I agree about the 86 (apart from the large KPI which causes a lot of jacking when lock is applied; maybe I've been a Honda whore too long) and the KISS principle, but the NA's FREDs and chassis were pretty advanced in its day, too.
I have absolutely no idea what this means?????:overhead:

[Hagasan]

I have absolutely no idea what this means?????:overhead:

King Pin Inclination........ Keep it simple silly (like the post ;-) ) Freaking Radical Engineering Design's? What every happened to the plain english society. It's like trying to read some sort of "text" speak..... acronyms that slow down what's meant to be read quickly.....

Not sure on FRED

PS at 4.22am I'm semi bored/idle at work..not a total insomniac!!

[Nick Graves]

F ucking Ridiculous Electronic Devices - the sort of boxes that add mass & detract from reliability, yet keep TC Mits (The Colloquial Man In the Street) from killing himself through his own feckless stupidity.

Don't even mention the campaign for remedial english; it's their fault that all the communications from the Quango parasites are in imprecise baby-babble these days. Whatever became of learning stuff?

[markc]

I have absolutely no idea what this means?????:overhead:

I'm glad someone else asked :D At least the punctuation was good :thumbsup:

Cheers

Mark

[NoelWatson]

http://www.freep.com/article/20120105/BUSINESS01/201050477/Honda-Civic-hybrid-mileage-case-in-small-claims-court

Maybe not too late to rip that out of the new car

[NoelWatson]

It is now 04:20 in Detroit, and it would seem doors open in less than 2 hours, with Acura @2:35pm Detroit time

http://www.naias.com/media/118810/12%20pressconferencemonday.pdf

[NSX 2000]

More news here

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/motorshows/detroit-motor-show/276931/detroit_motor_show_2012_preview.html

[nobby]

well at least we will know the plans of Honda re the new 'NSX'

still on the fence re the use of the name ... just hope its not some botch job and a proper intro as to what they will be offering with the car

[Senninha]

http://jalopnik.com/5874250/acura-nsx-concept-detroit-auto-show-undercover-photos

Still under wraps .... 2 hours to go Boys and Girls ...

[NSX 2000]

http://jalopnik.com/5874250/acura-nsx-concept-detroit-auto-show-undercover-photos

Still under wraps .... 2 hours to go Boys and Girls ...

Not much of an overhang after the rear wheel arch?

[Senninha]

Not much of an overhang after the rear wheel arch?

Maybe Ito doesn't play golf ... nice to see it still has the front wing centre hig points directly above the wheel centres as before ...

You can watch the revealing here ... http://www.acuranews.com/pages/2012naias-acura plus our friends on Prime have people at the show, cameras at the ready. First comments from seeing the covered vehicle is that its both taller and wider then the current car ...

[Senninha]

5 minutes to go ... http://www.acura.com/FutureVehicles.aspx

[NoelWatson]

RDX? Who cares?

[Senninha]

RDX? Who cares?

I drove the old model a couple of years ago and if I lived there this would be my daily driver ... new one looks like a sharp M Class to me

[NoelWatson]

19" wheels equating to performance? Really?

[Senninha]

Over whelming applause for the stock models .... now for Ito to launch NSX ...

[NoelWatson]

Come on!!!!!!

[WhyOne?]

"NSX Concept", car based on this concept model will be brought to market globally within 3 years.

R&D in the Americas.

To be built in Ohio (though unclear if this would be the sole production site).

Looks pretty good to me.

[WhyOne?]

From the Acura website:

Acura NSX Concept
The dynamically-styled NSX Concept gives an indication of the next great performance vehicle from the Acura brand. Making use of lightweight materials and a mid-mounted V-6 engine, the NSX Concept employs several new technologies for Acura, including application of Acura's innovative new Sport Hybrid SH-AWD® (Super Handling All Wheel Drive™) hybrid system.
Utilizing an unique 2 Electric Motor Drive Unit with a bilateral torque adjustable control system, the all-new hybrid all-wheel-drive system can instantly generate negative or positive torque to the front wheels during cornering. Acura anticipates the new Sport Hybrid SH-AWD® will deliver handling performance unmatched by previous AWD systems. In addition to the handling benefits of the Sport Hybrid SH-AWD® system, a powerful next-generation VTEC® V-6 engine with direct-injection works in concert with a dual clutch transmission with built-in electric motor to create supercar acceleration while offering outstanding efficiency.

"This Sport Hybrid SH-AWD system will make NSX the ultimate expression of Acura's idea to create synergy between man and machine," said Takanobu Ito, president and CEO of Honda Motor Co., Ltd. "The NSX will make the driver one with the car to enhance dynamic driving abilities without getting in the way."

While most supercars opt for brute force delivered from a large engine, the NSX Concept champions the true racing philosophy of an extremely favorable power-to-weight ratio.
"Like the first NSX, we will again express high performance through engineering efficiency," added Ito, who led the development of Acura's first NSX supercar. "In this new era, even as we focus on the fun to drive spirit of the NSX, I think a supercar must respond positively to environmental responsibilities."

The new Acura supercar, expected to debut in the next three years, will be developed by an engineering team led by Honda R&D Americas, Inc., and manufactured in Ohio, at a yet to be named facility.

[NoelWatson]

Nothing too outlandish so hopefully a good chance of coming to market

[Senninha]

Sadly in 3 years it will be out of date. This should be available next year! The guys on Prime (website just crashed BTW) are'nt to pleased with Ohio production, apparently quality isn't what it should be!

Maybe the Acura version will be US built to hit low price point and the rest can have a Japanese built version with real quality.

There are some really nice detail touches to the overall design, looks good to me ...

http://cdn.images.autocar.co.uk/612x408FFFFFFF/Car/Honda/NSX/Honda-NSX-611212111426011600x1060.jpg

[NZNick]

Sadly in 3 years it will be out of date. This should be available next year! The guys on Prime (website just crashed BTW) are'nt to pleased with Ohio production, apparently quality isn't what it should be!

Maybe the Acura version will be US built to hit low price point and the rest can have a Japanese built version with real quality.

There are some really nice detail touches to the overall design, looks good to me ...

.... Just looks too heavy and Audi-ish to me at this point.

Here's hoping RHD versions are Japan-built.

[Nick Graves]

.... Just looks too heavy and Audi-ish to me at this point.

Here's hoping RHD versions are Japan-built.

It's far more like Danny Bizarre's Loti - the Renault8 is sooo last year dahling; nearly as old as the HSC.

It's the styling direction everyone will be doing in three years' time.

The devaluation of the greenback relative to the Yen means it'll have to be made in its largest market and low volume means only one site, I'd wager.

At least it makes Acuras properly 'Merkin, I suppose. Gaddam' mo' fo' chicken sheeeet.

[Nick Graves]

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/acura-nsx-concept-detroit-2012-photos/full/#photo-4730058

Love the dashboard!

That car is quite tiny, judging by Ito-san

[havoc]

Not convinced, but it's not horrible. Early start tomorrow, so will think and post more tomorrow night...

[markc]

Not bad :undecided:

They need to calm down the front end styling a fair bit it, this sort of design looks daft enough on a Lambo and they're meant to be bonkers. Hopefully the chrome is only for the concept, it needs to go in the bin :cantlook: Interesting that there are virtually no design queues from the old stager.

MUCH better than the HSV p.o.s, at least the engine is in the right place :thumbsup:

Cheers

Mark

[Ewan]

Yeah, I quite like. But even if we get a Euro-spec preview at Geneva, and production starts at the end of this year (as AutoExpress are suggesting), I'll be amazed if it's £75k when it comes to the UK. Imagine if they could bring it here for £60k and really take the fight to the base 911 that would be £10k more? The GT-R will doubtless continue to sh*t over everything on paper, but at the right price point, it could be the thinking man's alternative.

If it's too expensive, then you'll be square into R8 territory and most wealthy people with the kind of disposable to drop best part of £100k on a 2 seat sports car, would sooner have Audi on their nose than Honda, I'm sure...

[Senninha]

http://chalkstunts.com/pics/af10462b.png

And see the concept in motion here ... starts with our car then intro's new model ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzaynkoC04k

[TheSebringOne]

Not bad, front too fussy & needs smoother lines, side profile the nicest & the rear ok.

I give it 6 out of 10 for now until the final model comes out.

What do you guys think of not having a long rear boot? Personally it gives our car character,
which the competitors lacked in the past. In the new model, the car looks a lot more compact
and may be the handling would more forgiving on the edge of adhesion?

[278kmh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6YNO5Iyg1w

[Geraint]

Thanks for sharing all the media, chaps :thumbsup:

I'm not sure about it yet. I like the basic shape, and (mostly) the design concept, but I think it's a bit over-styled with too many fussy slashes and gimmicks.

Hopefully these will be toned down for production and it'll look a bit less like a spaceship...

[NSX 2000]

Now being discussed on Pistonheads (The NSX is back)

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1097606&i=999999&nmt=RE: Detroit show: the NSX is back

[markc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6YNO5Iyg1w

Looks like Yamauchi San and the Gran Turismo team got plenty of advance warning about the new concept :) Nice video which also shows some of the mechanical design features like the transverse engine, DCT g'box, electric motors etc.

Cheers

Mark

[gumball]

Looks nice, much better than the previous concepts, great to see the engine return to the middle and have some nods to the original included.

[Nick Graves]

Thanks for sharing all the media, chaps :thumbsup:

I'm not sure about it yet. I like the basic shape, and (mostly) the design concept, but I think it's a bit over-styled with too many fussy slashes and gimmicks.

Hopefully these will be toned down for production and it'll look a bit less like a spaceship...

It'd look more timeless without those, but overstyled is the new er, not overstyled.

[Nick Graves]

Looks like Yamauchi San and the Gran Turismo team got plenty of advance warning about the new concept :) Nice video which also shows some of the mechanical design features like the transverse engine, DCT g'box, electric motors etc.

Cheers

Mark

I guess that's the closest we'll get to facts in this day & age.

I'll be fascinated to see if all this electrickery is any good, or not.

[markc]

What do you guys think of not having a long rear boot? Personally it gives our car character,
which the competitors lacked in the past.

Careful study of the photographs suggest it may still have a rear boot (trunk). There's a break line between the rear deck (boot lid) and the glass engine cover so they could open separately like the original. If it is a boot it will be Elise like tiny, unless of course the design gets stretched between now and production which is entirely possible.

Personally I think it should have a rear boot :)

Cheers

Mark

[m666 edd]

How do you work on the engine and there abouts?

[sorepaws]

AMERICAN HONDA UNVEILS NEW NSX CONCEPT AT 2012 DETROIT MOTOR SHOW (NAIAS).09/01/12 from Honda
Print this page .American Honda today unveiled the new NSX Concept, highlighting the design and technology direction for the next-generation supercar.

Badged as an Acura in the US, the new NSX, which is expected to go on sale in the next three years, will be developed by Honda R&D Americas and manufactured in Ohio but is developed for true sports driving enthusiasts throughout the world.

The dynamically-styled NSX Concept gives an indication of the next great performance vehicle from Honda. Making use of lightweight materials and a mid-mounted V-6 engine, the NSX Concept employs several new technologies, including an innovative new Sport Hybrid SH-AWD® (Super Handling All Wheel Drive™) hybrid system.

Speaking at the Detroit Motor Show, Takanobu Ito, President and CEO of Honda Motor Co., Ltd, who led the development of Honda’s first NSX supercar, explained the values of the new NSX, “Like the first NSX, we will again express high performance through engineering efficiency. In this new era, even as we focus on the fun to drive spirit of the NSX, I think a supercar must respond positively to environmental responsibilities.”

While most supercars opt for brute force delivered from a large engine, the NSX Concept champions the true racing philosophy of an extremely favourable power-to-weight ratio.

Utilising a unique 2 Electric Motor Drive Unit with a bilateral torque adjustable control system, the new hybrid all-wheel-drive system can instantly generate negative or positive torque to the front wheels during cornering, which Honda anticipates will deliver handling performance unmatched by previous AWD systems. In addition to the handling benefits of the Sport Hybrid SH-AWD® system, a powerful next-generation VTEC® V-6 engine with direct-injection, works in concert with a dual clutch transmission with built-in electric motor, to create supercar acceleration while offering outstanding efficiency.

This Sport Hybrid SH-AWD system will make the NSX the ultimate expression of, “the synergy between man and machine,” added Ito. “The NSX will make the driver one with the car to enhance dynamic driving abilities without getting in the way.”

In addition to the new NSX Concept, American Honda also unveiled the Accord Coupe Concept, providing the first glimpse of the styling direction of the ninth-generation US Accord, set to go on-sale in the US in autumn 2012. This model is designed uniquely for the US market and is not destined for Europe.

As the Acura brand enters its second 25 years as Honda’s premium luxury-performance automobile brand, a concept version of the Acura ILX luxury compact sedan and a prototype of the 2013 RDX crossover sports utility vehicle were also unveiled.

The Acura ILX Concept is the precursor to an all-new Acura luxury compact sedan scheduled for launch in spring 2012. To be positioned as the gateway to the Acura brand, the ILX will feature three different powertrains, including Acura’s first-ever petrol-electric hybrid.

ENDS

About Acura
Acura offers a full line of technologically advanced performance luxury vehicles through a network of 272 dealers within the United States. The 2012 Acura lineup features six distinctive models including the RL luxury performance sedan, the TL performance luxury sedan, the TSX sports sedan and Sport Wagon, the turbocharged RDX crossover SUV, the MDX luxury SUV and the ZDX four-door sports coupe. For media information and high-resolution photos of Acura vehicles, please visit www.acuranews.com. For consumer information, please visit www.acura.com. To view a webcast of the unveiling all three new Acura vehicles from the North America International Auto Show in Detroit, visithttp://acuranews.com/live/2012naias-acura.

For more information, please contact:

Ellie Wright
T: 01753 590193
E: Ellie.Wright@honda-eu.com

[sorepaws]

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/detroit-motor-show-2012/detroit-motor-show-honda-nsx/260757/pictures/detroit-motor-show-honda-nsx.aspx?im=482713

[NoelWatson]

"As the Acura brand enters its second 25 years as Honda’s premium luxury-performance automobile brand, a concept version of the Acura ILX luxury compact sedan"

This could be interesting for next family car if Tesla Model S doesn't have claimed range

[Senninha]

And for those who dont want a slow old silver NSX ...

http://i42.tinypic.com/14m8e8m.jpg

[britlude]

How do you work on the engine and there abouts?

it's a modern car, you're not supposed to!!! well, the dealers certainly don't want you to!

so squint, it could be an audi/ferrari with a different lights/grill! nothing in the overall shape to make it stand out from the others.

SH-AWD sounded interesting until i found out the 's' is for 'super'!! if it gets an upgrade will it be super-duper handling??? :)

And I still don't want it called an NSX! who's going to want a top-dollar 'old' NSX when the new one comes out???!

[Papalazarou]

Looks like a Vauxhall Civic. I so hope they don't make this.

Cheers,

James.

[havoc]

I'll be fascinated to see if all this electrickery is any good, or not.

I'm willing to bet it'll be VERY effective - think about the R34 Skyline or a proper JDM-Type-R STi, and then apply to a mid-engine'd, low-polar-moment supercar...

Whether it's VERY involving or not remains to be seen...hell, even the new 911 is being criticised as too aloof!

(Which I guess is my problem with most modern fast-metal - it does too much for you, insulates you too much from what is going on...agree with whoever posted last week about the new Toyobaru looking like one of the most interesting cars right now)



And I still don't want it called an NSX! who's going to want a top-dollar 'old' NSX when the new one comes out???!

I suspect the halo effect will work quite nicely overall, but I agree it COULD compress top-end values after a couple of years - say the 'new NSX' is an £80k car, 2 years on they'll be c.£50k, and a minty-mint NA2 would possibly be pushed sub-£40k as a result.
Or maybe not...they're far enough apart that they're not really competition (unlike e.g. generations of M3s or 911s), and the original IS a cult car now!

[Nick Graves]

Well, we shall have to see what arrives; This hybrid stuff is rather tainted by AGW religion & its pimps and so I'm not yet convinced that the engineering is as pure as it ought to be. Electrickery tends to be rather dense (lots of concentrated copper, iron & other metals) - although there may be some excellent supercaps on their way.

I have a Prelude that's great to drive and that does quite a lot of it for you (it's still fun though), so I'm probably prepared to accept that you need old dinosaur cars for the full flies/piston rings/hedges in the teeth experience. Many cannot keep a 240bhp S2000 on the road, apparently, so those sorts of cars are not popular. Why I tend to disdain most modern rubbish, though.

Time will tell whether Ito-san's 'fun to drive' corresponds with mine!

[rkanaga]

This is IMHO exactly the sort of approach you would expect and hope for from Honda. Not trying to beat the others at the insane power game, but using technology to create something that may well end up being more rewarding to drive than the other (faster) super cars around. Remember the original NSX wasn't particularly faster than comtemprary Ferrari's etc, just more intelligent. It sounds like the guys in charge are serious petrol heads as well so this bodes well. Now Honda tried and to some extent failed to establish a market segment for themselves in 1990. But now that Audi have firmly established the cool 'not a traditional hard to live with super car' niche with the R8, maybe Honda can go one better with the new NSX. I can see myself blasting up the A3 to work and then cruising on electric for the last 5 miles through traffic in one of these. How cool would that be?

Remember Lotus are turning to bling rap stars to give their cars some street cred whilst Honda have forward looking technology, Robert Downey Jr and Iron Man, I know which I would prefer!

Has anyone enquired about whether Honda UK are accepting any form of letters of intent yet etc? I'm seriously interested in putting in a provisional order for one of these to complement my NA1.

Cheers

Robin.

(PS one of the pleasures of a slightly warmer day after the winter cold snap is getting the NSX out. Absence really does make the heart grow fonder!)

[TheSebringOne]

Having seen the concept video, the car looks better on the move, abeit in CGI!

I've just remembered where I've seen those rear red lights before! The AM One-77!

[Ewan]

I've just remembered where I've seen those rear red lights before! The AM One-77!
I'm with you on that one - the rear view does look a little like a sharpened up Aston

10859

[NSX 2000]

Has anyone enquired about whether Honda UK are accepting any form of letters of intent yet etc? I'm seriously interested in putting in a provisional order for one of these to complement my NA1.

Cheers

Robin.

(PS one of the pleasures of a slightly warmer day after the winter cold snap is getting the NSX out. Absence really does make the heart grow fonder!)

I'll send an email to my contact at Honda UK head office today.



Having seen the concept video, the car looks better on the move, abeit in CGI!

I've just remembered where I've seen those rear red lights before! The AM One-77!


I'm with you on that one - the rear view does look a little like a sharpened up Aston

10859

The rear end is the only bit I'm not 100% keen on, I just don't like that centre crease, it reminds me of the centre console of the last Astra.

Paul

[rkanaga]

I'll send an email to my contact at Honda UK head office today.


Paul

Thanks Paul, very grateful for any information

Robin

[Lankstarr]

The rear end is the only bit I'm not 100% keen on, I just don't like that centre crease, it reminds me of the centre console of the last Astra.

Paul

100% agree with Paul here... that must be a first ;o)

Like the rest of it though. Would like to see some performance figures.

[markc]

While we're on the subject of don't likey, not only are the wheels are too big but I don't like the design (too fussy). This (massive wheels) is a very common problem with concept cars though and apart from being easy to fix they rarely make it to production.

Today's Autocar Mag leads with the NSX story and the "Super-Light" tag. Super-Light is going to super-difficult with all the batteries and motors on board and weight is of course is the enemy of performance, ride, handling... everything!

I wonder what the target weight is? My guess is they'll struggle to get it under 1500Kg :think:

Cheers

Mark

[PeteM]

Doesn't seem to be many people on this forum amazed with it's looks. I am not a massive fan of it as it looks to have taken design hints from the previous generation civic. For me the last attempt that didn't happen (The HSV-10) was a far better looking car and of course was suppose to have that wonderfull sounding V10 in road trim. Missed a trick as far as i am concerned. Reminder of what they could of done www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=21372

[markc]

For me the last attempt that didn't happen (The HSV-10) was a far better looking car and of course was suppose to have that wonderfull sounding V10 in road trim. Missed a trick as far as i am concerned. Reminder of what they could of done www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=21372

Ahh but that's the the race only version, actually a pure racing car. The road version was this dogs dinner below (see pic).

AND most V10's sound strange, sort of "moany", only the Carrera GT and maybe LFA have cracked the exhaust note. AND, AND a big NA motor is soo noughties (2000-2010)!

I like the latest one but there's nothing that special about the shape.

Good job we all like different things isn't it... vive la differance :)

Cheers

Mark

[Nick Graves]

While we're on the subject of don't likey, not only are the wheels are too big but I don't like the design (too fussy). This (massive wheels) is a very common problem with concept cars though and apart from being easy to fix they rarely make it to production.

Today's Autocar Mag leads with the NSX story and the "Super-Light" tag. Super-Light is going to super-difficult with all the batteries and motors on board and weight is of course is the enemy of performance, ride, handling... everything!

I wonder what the target weight is? My guess is they'll struggle to get it under 1500Kg :think:

Cheers

Mark

IIRC, the Gallardo was quoted at about 1,350kg, which surprised me with its too many cylinders & 4WD & stuff.

Presuming a similar package, and Li-ions or ultracaps, it might not be tooo much more. Especially if it's an ally/cf spaceframe like those BMW iPod things.

It's down to how light/how expensive, I suppose.

[NoelWatson]

AND most V10's sound strange, sort of "moany",
Mark


I did a fair amount of moaning in the V10 ring taxi

[NSX 2000]

Doesn't seem to be many people on this forum amazed with it's looks. I am not a massive fan of it as it looks to have taken design hints from the previous generation civic. For me the last attempt that didn't happen (The HSV-10) was a far better looking car and of course was suppose to have that wonderfull sounding V10 in road trim. Missed a trick as far as i am concerned. Reminder of what they could of done www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=21372 (http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=21372)


I like the latest one but there's nothing that special about the shape.

Good job we all like different things isn't it... vive la differance :)

Cheers

Mark

Don't all shoot me at once but I don't think our cars are the first word in good looking in fact I don't think any Honda car has been good looking, yet we have 3 (Honda cars that is) and I'm trying really hard for my parents to get one as well.


To me it's the whole package I love.

[NSX 2000]

Below is the reply I got from my Honda contact.

Hi Paul - great tohear from you, and I'm pleased to know that there are lots of excited owners inNSXCB - I'm excited too!

At this time, thestage belongs to Acura - the NSX Concept launch in Detroit was central to theirNew Product Strategy for North America, and it's been great to see it reportedas the 'star of the show'. However, there is a clear commitment that this carwill be sold as a Honda in other countries. We don't have any specific detailson plans for Europe just yet, and it's not something I'm currently involvedwith, but I'll make sure that your name is on top of the enquiry list! We'll beshowing the Honda NSX Concept at Geneva in March, I believe, and, as with Acurain the US, it signals the start of an exciting new product roll-out in Europe(Civic, CR-V, Accord, 'Type R', plus a few little surprises...)

When I learned thatAcura were going to use the 'NSX Concept' name, I knew that it was going to besomething special - mid-engined, light weight, amazing driving experience - andthe SH-AWD + Hybrid capability really provides a recipe worthy of the name. AsMr Ito was heavily involved in the original NSX, he wouldn't want to use thename on something unworthy of the moniker (it's massively revered inside Hondaas well as by its legions of fans around the world) - I'm sure there'll beplenty of debate about the suitability of any successor to wear that badge, soI see the deliberate use of the NSX tag as a clear and bold statement ofintent. No pressure, then.

Anyway, we'replanning for a happier new year in 2012, and it's great to start with some goodnews. Look forward to keeping in touchas more information emerges.

Kind regards,

****************


So who wants to come to the Geneva car show with me?

http://www.salon-auto.ch/en/pratiques/horaires/opening-hours-0-25321

Paul

[NSXGB]

...always fancied going to the Geneva motor show, birthday treat for myself maybe....

[Hagasan]

...always fancied going to the Geneva motor show, birthday treat for myself maybe....

Simon I go every 2nd year or so. Not sure about Gatwick flights but usually from Luton, if you go on a Tuesday or Wednesday you can have a day trip out there & back for easily less than £100 if you book the flights about now. It's only about £12-15 go get in and the complex is a ten minute walk from the airport. Makes a mockery of the NEC £50 round trip in fuel, £20+ to get in & then the screw you while you're there for parking £8 too.

First time a few mates & I went for three days not really knowing what to expect and spent a small fortune out eating & drinking as well....

It's quite nice for a trip out with the misses to if she doesn't mind the show.... a bit of shopping and nice restaurants balances it all but maybe a couple of days then...

If you like skiing or snowboarding then once you're over there Chamonix isn't to hard to get to on the train.....

[NSX 2000]

...always fancied going to the Geneva motor show, birthday treat for myself maybe....


Simon I go every 2nd year or so. Not sure about Gatwick flights but usually from Luton, if you go on a Tuesday or Wednesday you can have a day trip out there & back for easily less than £100 if you book the flights about now. It's only about £12-15 go get in and the complex is a ten minute walk from the airport. Makes a mockery of the NEC £50 round trip in fuel, £20+ to get in & then the screw you while you're there for parking £8 too.

First time a few mates & I went for three days not really knowing what to expect and spent a small fortune out eating & drinking as well....

It's quite nice for a trip out with the misses to if she doesn't mind the show.... a bit of shopping and nice restaurants balances it all but maybe a couple of days then...

If you like skiing or snowboarding then once you're over there Chamonix isn't to hard to get to on the train.....

I was thinking of driving.

[Silver Surfer]

This space age concept doesn't quite light my fire...shame...maybe I am too conservative....whereas the Esprit...

10865

Now I can see some connection in style from our current model to this...shame it's not made by Honda.

SS

[TheSebringOne]

Is this car going to be mostly made of alu like ours? One of the main reasons why our NSX lost Honda £18K on all cars old was due to the
then new alu manufacturing process that gave our cars the unique distinction. I assume manufacturing know how has brought cost down
a lot by now.

Price is going to be interesting, it could sell well if price is same as the new 991, but when the original came out it was already £10k more than the
993 & 996, thats before the £10k drop with the NA2 02+. If Honda priced it alot higher & do the Halo effect like ours, then means it makes a lost again!

Just had a look at the knowledge in Evo, mk1 standard Gallardo was 1520 kg & the latest/lightest special is SuperLeggera at 1340 kg. HTH

[Ewan]

So who wants to come to the Geneva car show with me?

http://www.salon-auto.ch/en/pratiques/horaires/opening-hours-0-25321

Paul

If Honda UK could sort out some hospitality tickets, I'm there ;-)

[NSXGB]

....I'm in if it's mid week....

[NSXGB]

Gatwick - Geneva return flights on Easyjet are showing as the best part of £75 at the moment.

[Hagasan]

What dates you thinking Simon? Friday 16th @ £68 all in..that's Loowtun though...

[Hagasan]

If Honda UK could sort out some hospitality tickets, I'm there ;-)

Flights inclusive of course :-) !!

[NSXGB]

What dates you thinking Simon? Friday 16th @ £68 all in..that's Loowtun though...

Looking at Tues 13th, there and back same day. £73.98 inc booking fee. 06.10 outbound, 18:45 inbound.

[Hagasan]

Looking at Tues 13th, there and back same day. £73.98 inc booking fee. 06.10 outbound, 18:45 inbound.

Looks like outbound that day is all gone from Luton. First flight out is 14.45. Just though if a few of us were going then it might have been worth a "group" trip...at least for some eats and a beer later on.

[NSXGB]

Looks like outbound that day is all gone from Luton. First flight out is 14.45. Just though if a few of us were going then it might have been worth a "group" trip...at least for some eats and a beer later on.

I'm available Tues, Wed &Thurs that week...Although it gets more expensive later in the week too...

[Hagasan]

I'm available Tues, Wed &Thurs that week...Although it gets more expensive later in the week too...

Finish nights Thurs morning...not ideal. You about the Friday or is that your first dayshift? It's the cheapest that day from Luton of all the days actually!

[NSXGB]

Finish nights Thurs morning...not ideal. You about the Friday or is that your first dayshift? It's the cheapest that day from Luton of all the days actually!

....Yes, that Friday will be one of my very last dayshifts ever....maybe!! The Friday from Gatwick was £59 outbound only!

[Hagasan]

....Yes, that Friday will be one of my very last dayshifts ever....maybe!! The Friday from Gatwick was £59 outbound only!

Oh well.. not to you shifts but aligning flights! Hopefully something positive will come out of your work situ.... Hope you enjoy if you do go...

[NSXGB]

Oh well.. not to you shifts but aligning flights! Hopefully something positive will come out of your work situ.... Hope you enjoy if you do go...

Yes, Tuesday is the cheapest day with EJ. I would take some holiday other wise.
Just out of interest, I clicked to 'show the Flexi Fares'....Crazy prices, it would have been cheaper to go to the Detroit Motor Show!

[WhyOne?]

....Yes, that Friday will be one of my very last dayshifts ever....maybe!! The Friday from Gatwick was £59 outbound only!

That'll be OK - doesn't sound like you need to come back Simon...................

[Senninha]

This space age concept doesn't quite light my fire...shame...maybe I am too conservative....whereas the Esprit...

10865

Now I can see some connection in style from our current model to this...shame it's not made by Honda.

SS

I dont see NSX, I see 458 in profile which is not surprising as they are from the same pen ...

[forumadmin]

I was thinking of driving.

Hmm, Geneve Motor Show. Guess I could go see this, but of a trek though, about 40mins drive away from home. :cool:

[rkanaga]

Below is the reply I got from my Honda contact.

Hi Paul - great tohear from you, and I'm pleased to know that there are lots of excited owners inNSXCB - I'm excited too!

At this time, thestage belongs to Acura - the NSX Concept launch in Detroit was central to theirNew Product Strategy for North America, and it's been great to see it reportedas the 'star of the show'. However, there is a clear commitment that this carwill be sold as a Honda in other countries. We don't have any specific detailson plans for Europe just yet, and it's not something I'm currently involvedwith, but I'll make sure that your name is on top of the enquiry list! We'll beshowing the Honda NSX Concept at Geneva in March, I believe, and, as with Acurain the US, it signals the start of an exciting new product roll-out in Europe(Civic, CR-V, Accord, 'Type R', plus a few little surprises...)

When I learned thatAcura were going to use the 'NSX Concept' name, I knew that it was going to besomething special - mid-engined, light weight, amazing driving experience - andthe SH-AWD + Hybrid capability really provides a recipe worthy of the name. AsMr Ito was heavily involved in the original NSX, he wouldn't want to use thename on something unworthy of the moniker (it's massively revered inside Hondaas well as by its legions of fans around the world) - I'm sure there'll beplenty of debate about the suitability of any successor to wear that badge, soI see the deliberate use of the NSX tag as a clear and bold statement ofintent. No pressure, then.

Anyway, we'replanning for a happier new year in 2012, and it's great to start with some goodnews. Look forward to keeping in touchas more information emerges.

Kind regards,

****************
Associate Sales andMarketing Support Manager

So who wants to come to the Geneva car show with me?

http://www.salon-auto.ch/en/pratiques/horaires/opening-hours-0-25321

Paul


Thanks Paul. I'll bombard Honda UK with some emails and see if I can get on some sort of list as well!


Cheers

Robin

[havoc]

Is this car going to be mostly made of alu like ours? One of the main reasons why our NSX lost Honda £18K on all cars old was due to the then new alu manufacturing process that gave our cars the unique distinction. I assume manufacturing know how has brought cost down
a lot by now.

Just had a look at the knowledge in Evo, mk1 standard Gallardo was 1520 kg & the latest/lightest special is SuperLeggera at 1340 kg. HTH

New (981) Boxster is supposed to be ally-panelled (not sure about chassis) and ~100kg lighter than the outgoing one, or c.1,300kg. The NSX concept can't be any bigger (981 gets longer w/base and wider track than 987), so if it's full-ally again, then the BIW weight-savings vs the Boxster should offset the electrickery. Could come in at sub-1,400kg, if they've done their work right (it's smaller than ours, by all accounts), although I'd stick a wager on 1,450...

[markc]

Could come in at sub-1,400kg, if they've done their work right (it's smaller than ours, by all accounts), although I'd stick a wager on 1,450...

It's 4 inches shorter but 4 inches wider (same height) so it occupies more real estate that ours and will therefore have more metal, or material, in the bare chassis (BIW). Battery packs an associated high current wiring weigh a ton (figuratively) so they're going to have to go some to keep it light. 1400Kg would be a great result :)

Cheers

Mark

[TheSebringOne]

Some more pictures & short clip.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/motorshows/detroit-motor-show/276913/new_honda_nsx_revealed.html?CMP=NLC-Newsletters&uid=65af0da4d3d7d701e735fb92f92f332a

For some reason the car looks better and now growing on me!

The guy on the clip says 450 bhp now?

[Ewan]

The guy on the clip says 450 bhp now?

Guess we'll just have to wait & see... if the original NSX put out 90-95bhp/L, yet the S2000 could manage ~120bhp/L, you have to think that a modern 3.5 or 3.7L v6 could push 350+bhp on its own. And some commentators said the electric assistance would add another 100bhp, then it's entirely feasible that it could be over the 400bhp that everyone else has said.

These things, as we all know, are an inexact science. In the past, I had what I thought was a lardy, heavy (it felt it) Italian 390bhp car, yet when I checked it was only about 1600kg. It went like stink in a straight line with 250bhp/ton or whatever [NA2 02+ NSX would be putting out about 220bhp/ton by comparison], but in any corner it was all at sea.

Imagine a 1400kg NSX "NA3", with 400bhp - that would be more like 290bhp/ton, and it would certainly handle well. The 458 Italia, by comparison, has about 385bhp/ton, so it's not too far behind... and if Honda had any sense, they'd already be planning a stripped out "Type R" 1300kg car with 475bhp or so, which would put it within sniffing distance of the 458 but without the expense...

[NSXGB]

I'm liking it. Of course it will end up a toned down version of what we see now, decent wheels will lift it greatly IMHO. And it will look better with the Honda badge, rather than the silly Star Trek ones.

Is there no indication where it will be priced yet?

[m666 edd]

With all this talk of weight - Doesn't an standard early NSX weigh 1350kg or so?

[NoelWatson]

And some commentators said the electric assistance would add another 100bhp, then it's entirely feasible that it could be over the 400bhp that everyone else has said.




Has anyone worked out how plausible that 100bhp figure is based on current battery technology?

[WhyOne?]

Has anyone worked out how plausible that 100bhp figure is based on current battery technology?

Fisker Karma:

"The Karma's two 201 brake horsepower (204 PS) motors produce 1,300 newton metres (960 ft·lbf) of torque.........."

So all very do-able I guess.

[Lankstarr]

Also very interested in price and performeance figures, maybe we'll have to watch the avengers movie and guess how fast it is. It would be nice to know more info and if they are planning a type R... and if they are whether it will be available in the UK.

I guess they might release the standard variant, guage reaction and take up before releasing a R version. Liely the R will cost less than an NA2 R based on what the 02 one recently sold for! Maybe in three years I'll be in a position to afford one, I bet the R will be anoth 2 years after that if it comes and that's an aful long way away!

L*

[NoelWatson]

Fisker Karma:

"The Karma's two 201 brake horsepower (204 PS) motors produce 1,300 newton metres (960 ft·lbf) of torque.........."

So all very do-able I guess.

Correct me I'm wrong but Fisker is a series hybrid. Also, the article here says the battery pack is 600lbs

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-fisker-karma-test-review

[NSX 2000]

Thanks Paul. I'll bombard Honda UK with some emails and see if I can get on some sort of list as well!


Cheers

Robin

Hi Robin

There is no need to bombard Honda with emails just yet :) Honda will let me know as soon as they start a list and I will let you know.

This is still just a concept, and as Ian (WhyOne?) has already pointed out there are still certain things to iron out, such as where will the Japanese and European market cars be built. I would guess that they will gauge intrest in Europe at the Geneva show and then with that info they can make some firm decisions.

Paul

[NSX 2000]

If we ignore price and performance how do we think the car will sell?

One of the main reassons that our NSX's did not sell well in Europe has always been down to brand snobbery. However I think that over the last few years people (or at least people who buy this sort of car) are not so hung up on a badge. My main reason for thinking this is the success of the Nissan GT R. Nissan sold very few R34 GT-R's in the UK and even fewer in Europe, but has had great success with the current GT-R.

What do you all think?

Paul

[NoelWatson]

If we ignore price and performance how do we think the car will sell?

One of the main reassons that our NSX's did not sell well in Europe has always been down to brand snobbery. However I think that over the last few years people (or at least people who buy this sort of car) are not so hung up on a badge. My main reason for thinking this is the success of the Nissan GT R. Nissan sold very few R34 GT-R's in the UK and even fewer in Europe, but has had great success with the current GT-R.

What do you all think?

Paul

Paul,

I'm not sure if you can ignore price & performance. If it is more than the GT-R, slower, and Honda try and justify that by saying it is a hybrid that has low CO2 (when cheating over the EU test), they won't get my money. It has to be special - by that I mean the engine has to rev to 9500rpm for starters

[Nick Graves]

If we ignore price and performance how do we think the car will sell?

One of the main reassons that our NSX's did not sell well in Europe has always been down to brand snobbery. However I think that over the last few years people (or at least people who buy this sort of car) are not so hung up on a badge. My main reason for thinking this is the success of the Nissan GT R. Nissan sold very few R34 GT-R's in the UK and even fewer in Europe, but has had great success with the current GT-R.

What do you all think?

Paul

The Godzilla and NSX have now been around long enough to have earned some cachet, so all things being equal, the badge should be less of an issue. When the cars first appearerd, there was still quite a lot of '*** crap' (there were worse soubriquets!) snobbery still around.

OTOH, Honda has been through quite a bad patch product-wise; we'll have to see how well the new Civ, CofE, Accord and CUV are seen in EU first.

[Senninha]

I think you're right, and when you see what Audi has achieved with its inflated TT, the R8, they have proven that if the car is right then people will buy. The other strength that both Nissan and Audi have demonstrated with the GTR and R8 is the ability to release 'new' models frequently. I'm not sure that Honda will/could follow this as agressively, but could for example keep interest high by leading with the coupe, adding the targa / cabrio a year later, then follow these with focussed models such as Type S and Type R. If what Ito San spoke about at the Acura launch is true, that they intend to go racing, then I suspect we could see a stripped GT3 tag.

Can we ignore price? For most of us probably yes as it will high enough to prevent many of the enthusiasts from buying. But then I suspect most R8 owners are not enthusiasts but do have the disposable income to buy £70k + sports cars. However, I would not expect Honda to build the volumes of the R8 so whatever the price, if the drive is right ti should retain strong residuals in this new Halo car.

The other price consideration is what (if any) impact it might have on current models. I suspect NA1 clean cars are stable and will remain that way, possibly increasing as they become rarer. Pop-up NA2's will probably be the same as NA1 with even fewer of these having come to market in the past 3 years. If there is any negative impact on pricing in the intial launch of any new NSX, it could be the later 02 cars. I say this as these are the NSX models most likely to hit forecourts through p/x, however I would'nt see it being much of a dip (if at all).

You also passed on performance. Aside from the 'firsts' that the original delivered, alli body, titanium pistons etc, its real achievement is the way it often outperformed the established competition with only 270hp. Sensible gearing and the Vtec flex ensured it was a real drivers car. If the much posted video of the on track footage for the new NSX in the gaming videos is anything to go by, then I hope that Honda can repeat what it did the first time around by delivering a truly rewarding performance car and demonstrating to the world that the chasing of high BHP numbers is pointless if you cant put this power on the tarmac or actually use it to improve the driving experience. From the video is suggests that turn in will be improved thanx to the technology, which in turn, and not unlike the GTR mentioned earlier, will improve performance, be that in the dreaded N'ring lap tap or for the owner on his/her favourite B road.

And finally, will it sell? Drop the show wheels for something more in keeping with Honda, redirect the silly (IMO) exhaust tips into the diffusor and soften the front end a little and if this is complimented with a simple interior (like the original and MP4), then yes, I think it will sell better than the original. My only ask would be that Honda dont chase sales volume and leave that margin return for the US built cars whilst we get ours from Europe or Japan please.

Just my thoughts on a cold fresh Friday afternoon

regards, Paul


If we ignore price and performance how do we think the car will sell?

One of the main reassons that our NSX's did not sell well in Europe has always been down to brand snobbery. However I think that over the last few years people (or at least people who buy this sort of car) are not so hung up on a badge. My main reason for thinking this is the success of the Nissan GT R. Nissan sold very few R34 GT-R's in the UK and even fewer in Europe, but has had great success with the current GT-R.

What do you all think?

Paul

[NSXGB]

Has anyone worked out how plausible that 100bhp figure is based on current battery technology?


Quote from Richard Hammonds article in the Mirror today:
"The likely powertrain is a 306bhp 3.5-litre V6 mid mounted engine with a pair of 27bhp electric motors driving a font wheel each. The body will be a mix of aluminium and carbon reinforced plastic."

Hmmmm.

[Ewan]

Hamster may be getting mixed up with the Acura MDX - that's the one that will have the same 4WD system, albeit driving petrol power to the front wheels and 2x 27bhp electric motors on the rear, with a 3.5L v6 developing 306bhp and a 39bhp leccy motor providing assistance. Total that lot and we're looking at 399bhp, but I'd have to say - surely Honda could eke more power out of its halo sports car, than it could get out of a hybrid SUV?

[markc]

I think we're looking at a new era of the sports/supercar here and although the brand image and snobbery will persist there will be new players (Fisker, Tesla etc) and potentially a new order.

Porsche are already racing their hybrid GT3 which is pretty similar in layout to the NSX Concept and have shown their 918 Concept. BMW and Jaguar have shown electric and petrol/electric hybrids and Lexus have arguably more hybrid experience than anyone else integrating the hybrid drivetrain. I'm sure Aston, Audi/Lambo and Ferrari also have new hybrid designs in the works and McLaren MUST have one among their forthcoming models. Nissan's tie up with Renault could see them develop a 'leccy GTR fairly quickly.

IF Honda get to market first they will be able to cash in on the new hybrid super/sports car sector and also set the price and performance benchmarks.

Will it sell? Possibly. The best chance of it being a BIG success will be to own the market for a few years like Toyota did/do with the Prius. If they get the California celebrity set and enviro-mentalists onboard that might help as well. As the Prius proves the product doesn't even have to be very good if the marketing is right! However I suspect the challengers will be on the market pretty soon after the NSX meaning it will have to not only be good but demonstrably better than them.

Cheers

Mark

[havoc]

I suspect the 918 will be first to market, albeit at a silly price (a-la One-77).

Elec motors - you're both right - the Karma is a full hybrid with a LOT more electrics in than the NSX concept will have, whilst the MDX can't be taken as a judge...although re-using the sam motors WOULD keep cost down. 99bhp of electrics plus a re-tuned engine (350bhp, broad-range delivery 3.7 V6 would be easy) would give the 450 that would make the car properly competitive, and could be done for sub-1500kg and sub-£100k, IMHO.


Sales in the UK? Better than ours (not difficult, but agree the original has left a legacy and a cult following to build upon), worse than the R8 and GT-R. Too many people want the easy-hit and/or the pub-bragging-rights of the turbo-nutter GT-R, and a lot of the others want the Audi/Porsche badge on the bonnet. Narrows the market somewhat...

[Ewan]

I suspect the challengers will be on the market pretty soon after the NSX meaning it will have to not only be good but demonstrably better than them.


Wise words, Mark - trouble is, Honda are basically saying the new NSX will be with us in 2015. Now, some of the mags are reporting production starting next year (presumably late so, therefore reaching consumers late 2013/early 2014), unless they're low-balling and saying 3 years so they can surprise us all and get a good bit of positive news.

As Paul said earlier, who knows what the route to market will be in Europe - US production? Japanese manufacture? Will they be the same, or variants on a theme where the US Acura plant chucks out something decent at $80k, and the Japanese plant might do a Honda-badged affair at $120k that's got more oomph, better fit & finish etc... Guess we'll just have to wait & see.

As for going to Geneva - I'm up for it; but only if I/we could get some more privileged access to the concept, and/or to people who might know about what the plans are. I'm not about to spend a day going to Geneva to stand in the thongs looking at a car 100ft away, which I could get better pictures or videos of by looking online...

Whatever happens, it better happen sooner than later, and be in the position of being less expensive than any obvious competition or else it would end up in a similar position to the original, of being too late/too expensive/too niche.

[rkanaga]

Hi Robin

There is no need to bombard Honda with emails just yet :) Honda will let me know as soon as they start a list and I will let you know.

This is still just a concept, and as Ian (WhyOne?) has already pointed out there are still certain things to iron out, such as where will the Japanese and European market cars be built. I would guess that they will gauge intrest in Europe at the Geneva show and then with that info they can make some firm decisions.

Paul



Cheers Paul. I'll try to be patient. 20 years is, however, a hell of a long the to wait for a new NSX!

Robin.

[NoelWatson]

99bhp of electrics


Unless I am missing something, the Pruis has a 50kg battery pack that gives 36bhp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Toyota_hybrids

How much do people think the new NSX battery pack will weigh?

[havoc]

The Prius is using c.5y.o. motor tech and batteries. If the NSX is 2-3 years away, that's a good 6-8 years of development. I'd also opine that the Prius is designed to run for longer on batteries alone than the NSX proposal, from what I've read (NSX battery-only range is a few miles at most), so the motors can draw the battery charge more quickly than in the Prius.

Therefore a 2-3x multiple over the Prius for similar weight isn't unreasonable...albeit the 'true hybrid' credentials of the NSX become somewhat stretched...

[NoelWatson]

The Prius is using c.5y.o. motor tech and batteries. If the NSX is 2-3 years away, that's a good 6-8 years of development. I'd also opine that the Prius is designed to run for longer on batteries alone than the NSX proposal, from what I've read (NSX battery-only range is a few miles at most), so the motors can draw the battery charge more quickly than in the Prius.

Therefore a 2-3x multiple over the Prius for similar weight isn't unreasonable...albeit the 'true hybrid' credentials of the NSX become somewhat stretched...

I guess we will have to rely on battery tech advancing - in which case we should be getting pure EV cars with decent range in the not too distant future.

[Nick Graves]

That's simply not gonna happen in this universe; it's that Einstein's fault.

You'll have to wait for the FCX for that; maybe another 50 years.

That's why I suspect the NSX's system is more an e-SHAWD system than a hybrid nonsense per se. They claim the pack is Li-Ion in the diagrams, but they might be contrived more like supercaps than batteries.

[Silver Surfer]

Some photoshop on Prime which are quite interesting and do bring out my enthusiasm for the new design as time goes on...(1 week).

10870

See here for more rendition http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156706

1087110872

SS

[NSX 2000]

As for going to Geneva - I'm up for it; but only if I/we could get some more privileged access to the concept, and/or to people who might know about what the plans are. I'm not about to spend a day going to Geneva to stand in the thongs looking at a car 100ft away, which I could get better pictures or videos of by looking online....

Ewan this is what my contact has said

"Hi Paul - I'll ask the PR team about Geneva - don't forget to take your Swiss bank account PIN number with you! (You'll need it just to buy a pint over there.)"

Paul

[Senninha]

Interesting how a simple change of rims can improve the flow of the design ...


Some photoshop on Prime which are quite interesting and do bring out my enthusiasm for the new design as time goes on...(1 week).

10870

SS

I'm not liking the Blue or White P/S options as too heavily influenced by 458 ...

[markc]

Interesting how a simple change of rims can improve the flow of the design ...

Still waaaaaaaay too big though!

Cheers

Mark

[Senninha]

Still waaaaaaaay too big though!

Cheers

Mark

Absolutely agree with you on this Mark ... and I would hope Mr Ito does too come production time ...

[Lankstarr]

My main interest is interior size (!), I was very impressed with how much room I had in an R8 and sadly it will have to be a major factor when I look to change cars. The current model is just too cramped for me and teh new model looks smaller which is worrying. Hopefully they have considered that americans are far bigger than Ito!

Surely it's conceivable that they can get 400bhp out of the 3.5V6, 120bhp per litre for the S2000 would equate to 360 if it were only a 3.0 V6 and given c.15 years of additional development time and 500 extra cc's I would hope that 400 should be at the low end of the target.

Am I dreaming to think this could have 500bhp+ with the leccy bits? LMK if they've announced anything but I'm pretty sure mopst of the figrues being quoted by people are based on SUV speculation. Just thing how the 3.0 NSX output compared to the Accord coupe with effectively the same engine...

L*

[NoelWatson]

My main interest is interior size (!), I was very impressed with how much room I had in an R8 and sadly it will have to be a major factor when I look to change cars. The current model is just too cramped for me and teh new model looks smaller which is worrying. Hopefully they have considered that americans are far bigger than Ito!

Surely it's conceivable that they can get 400bhp out of the 3.5V6, 120bhp per litre for the S2000 would equate to 360 if it were only a 3.0 V6 and given c.15 years of additional development time and 500 extra cc's I would hope that 400 should be at the low end of the target.

Am I dreaming to think this could have 500bhp+ with the leccy bits? LMK if they've announced anything but I'm pretty sure mopst of the figrues being quoted by people are based on SUV speculation. Just thing how the 3.0 NSX output compared to the Accord coupe with effectively the same engine...

L*

If the S2000 could give ~120bhp/litre at 11.0:1 and ~125bhp @11.7:1, and newer cars are running 12.5, I can't see why 130bhp/litre is out of the question, which gives 450bhp.

[havoc]

True, in theory. However you need to consider:-
- reliability - Ferrari can hit silly numbers because you pay through the nose to service it every 4k miles. Yanks won't accept that from a Honda.
- tractability - I suspect they'd rather a nice, thick curve than a top-end power headline number...but I'd hope they still hit 100bhp/litre.
- servicing costs - see above.

I'll wager the engine will kick out at least 350bhp, plus 60-80bhp from the motors, in a ~1450kg car giving performance easily equal to a 991 Carrera S or an R8. There'll then be room for a Type-S or Type-R above it with a higher-strung motor.

[markc]

Am I the only one amazed it's not a turbo charged motor? Given that emission regulations will only get tougher a turbo motor will help them meet them AND get bigger power.

I wouldn't mind a small speculative wager on a 1.6 turbo V6 making it into production rather than the 3.5Ltr NA? A bit like the concept XJ220's V12 shrinking to a turbo V6 come production time :)

It'd tie in with the new F1 engine regs as well if Honda fancied supplying engines again :cool:

Cheers

Mark

[duncan]

Wrong game: IMO car manufacturers are no longer chasing the greatest bhp/litre, the new game is lowest Co2.
Look at the piss poor power outputs compared to 10, 20, 30 years ago, but the Co2 is down and the "claimed" mpg is up. By way of progress; the latest Civic can wring 140bhp from a 1.8, the same as Lotus claimed from a 1.6 in the late 1960's; most mainstream "turbo's" scrape a target atmo figure of 100ps/litre. More interestingly, when did anyone see a road-test or real life figure for fuel consumption that replicated the claimed [standardised test] mpg. Just use the electronics to keep over-fuelling the engine to save the CAT, the turbo and the pistons providing the emissions aren't measured at those points.
Cynicism aside, I'm happy to report that I run a fully green car with zero emissions. Bunnies are happy, the world jumps for joy, just breathe the green output from a V8 Morgan; it's green [started out dark blue but re-painted BRG, and for a 1972 car the emissions test is ..'does it emit visible smoke'..Answer No, hence zero emissions]

[AR]

I agree with Mark, more than likely there will be Turbos.

[NoelWatson]

True, in theory. However you need to consider:-
- reliability - Ferrari can hit silly numbers because you pay through the nose to service it every 4k miles. Yanks won't accept that from a Honda.
- tractability - I suspect they'd rather a nice, thick curve than a top-end power headline number...but I'd hope they still hit 100bhp/litre.
- servicing costs - see above.

I'll wager the engine will kick out at least 350bhp, plus 60-80bhp from the motors, in a ~1450kg car giving performance easily equal to a 991 Carrera S or an R8. There'll then be room for a Type-S or Type-R above it with a higher-strung motor.

Reliability: They are going with direct injection, so I am rather sceptical, unless they have managed to avoid the numerous issues with current DI engines. Also, Porsche are way over 100bhp/litre with yearly service intervals. Even my poxy BMW allegedly had 90bhp/litre, although it now has a lot less due to various issues.
tractability: Isn't that the point of Vtec? The S2000 torque curve looks OK to me

I'd be very surprised if Honda engineer more than one variant of motor given likely sales. Also. it can't just match the R8 or 911 if it wants to sell in reasonable numbers.

[NoelWatson]

Am I the only one amazed it's not a turbo charged motor? Given that emission regulations will only get tougher a turbo motor will help them meet them AND get bigger power.

I wouldn't mind a small speculative wager on a 1.6 turbo V6 making it into production rather than the 3.5Ltr NA? A bit like the concept XJ220's V12 shrinking to a turbo V6 come production time :)

It'd tie in with the new F1 engine regs as well if Honda fancied supplying engines again :cool:

Cheers

Mark

I would very much doubt many people would drop 80k on a Honda with a 1.6litre engine.

[NoelWatson]

Wrong game: IMO car manufacturers are no longer chasing the greatest bhp/litre, the new game is lowest Co2.


I would argue there is some correlation - "advances" like direct injection give improvements in both (was going to confirm this on Wiki, but it is blacked out today)

[m666 edd]

I thought the reason for the Hybrid talk was to have the excuse to still have a NA engine. If like they say they will only put the NSX badge on something worthy then the sound has to be one of the main points.

[Lankstarr]

I agree on the sound - NSX has to sound fantastic and this will not happen from a 1.6 or a lower strung NA motor with turbos.

I disagree on emissions - a sports car will sell on headline bhp figure, 0-62 times, ring times, handling etc... co2 emissions will be a bonus but not high on the list. If it can match R8/GTR/911 on performance and headline power but be service friendly, reliable, economic (in relative terms) and co2 happy then this may give it the edge. It looks like it will look more of a supercar than the rest of the peer group and this will help a lot. 911 and GTR are 2+2 so may appeal to a slightly different market, although I'm unsure just how many people actually use those rear seats!

I'm saving my order for eth drop top type R variant, when is that going to be released?

L*

[WhyOne?]

.....I'm saving my order for eth drop top type R variant, when is that going to be released?

L*

Surely that's an oxymoron!

[markc]

Wrong game: IMO car manufacturers are no longer chasing the greatest bhp/litre, the new game is lowest Co2.

I agree, which is why I mentioned emissions and performance in the same breath. Turbo engine low power off boost help here as do the change up points of the DSG 'box in full auto mode, together these contribute to high MPG and low Co2 and is why is why no new cars match their official figures in real world driving.


I would very much doubt many people would drop 80k on a Honda with a 1.6litre engine.

Not today but in 5yrs time they might. Especially if/when Porsche and Ferrari are selling similar powertrains.


I thought the reason for the Hybrid talk was to have the excuse to still have a NA engine. If like they say they will only put the NSX badge on something worthy then the sound has to be one of the main points.

Remember that the great sound the NSX makes in standard form is for occupants only. From the outside they sound very average.

I agree on the sound - NSX has to sound fantastic and this will not happen from a 1.6 or a lower strung NA motor with turbos.

I disagree on emissions - a sports car will sell on headline bhp figure, 0-62 times, ring times, handling etc... co2 emissions will be a bonus but not high on the list. If it can match R8/GTR/911 on performance and headline power but be service friendly, reliable, economic (in relative terms) and co2 happy then this may give it the edge. It looks like it will look more of a supercar than the rest of the peer group and this will help a lot. 911 and GTR are 2+2 so may appeal to a slightly different market, although I'm unsure just how many people actually use those rear seats!L*

The problem isn't the sports car buyers as such it's the government requirements. High Co2 output will likely attract HUGE taxes making even the very rich think twice. Aston, Bugatti, Pagani, Koenigsegg etc might get away with it but Audi, BMW and most certainly Honda won't!

Cheers

Mark

[NoelWatson]

I agree, which is why I mentioned emissions and performance in the same breath. Turbo engine low power off boost help here as do the change up points of the DSG 'box in full auto mode, together these contribute to high MPG and low Co2 and is why is why no new cars match their official figures in real world driving.

O/T -I seem to recall Autocar doing a real world mpg test, and the GT-R got very near to claimed.

Anyway, look at the 911, 350bhp and only 194g when specified with the doppelganger. 12.5:1 compressions ratio. And this is their base car. Honda really have a mountain to climb.

[havoc]

Remember that the great sound the NSX makes in standard form is for occupants only. From the outside they sound very average.

Good. Far too many cars do the opposite - all of these exhausts sounds are pointless, IMHO.

[AR]

Good. Far too many cars do the opposite - all of these exhausts sounds are pointless, IMHO.

Maybe is time to buy one of this then:
http://www.soundracer.se/

[markc]

O/T -I seem to recall Autocar doing a real world mpg test, and the GT-R got very near to claimed.

Yes I remember reading that article. They did try to recreate the official "combined" driving cycle though and like I said turbocharged, dual clutch gearbox equipped cars like the GTR do best at this. Driven normally you won't get close to those official figures.

Going a step further I think the NSX is going to have to be a plug-in hybrid as well. Even if it has very limited range, <5 miles?, on pure battery power, making it plug in would ensure those batteries always give that range at the start of each day. This would ensure a morning run to Starbucks or Dunkin' Donuts for our Californian friends would result in zero Co2 emissions and they can feel good about themselves :)

Cheers

Mark

[Senninha]

Now theres a great way to start the day ... new eco friendly supercar (featured in Autocar today BTW), in drop top Type S configuration, Californian sunshine and a Starbucks, all without a single drop of super unleaded consumed .... :thumbsup:


.........Going a step further I think the NSX is going to have to be a plug-in hybrid as well. Even if it has very limited range, <5 miles?, on pure battery power, making it plug in would ensure those batteries always give that range at the start of each day. This would ensure a morning run to Starbucks would result in zero Co2 emissions and they can feel good about themselves :)

Cheers

Mark

[WhyOne?]

Now theres a great way to start the day ... new eco friendly supercar (featured in Autocar today BTW), in drop top Type S configuration, Californian sunshine and a Starbucks, all without a single drop of super unleaded consumed .... :thumbsup:

Indeed......but if it is a plug-in hybrid, some environmental damage will have most likely occurred somewhere (conveniently out of sight) to generate to electrons deposited in the car overnight.

[NoelWatson]

Indeed......but if it is a plug-in hybrid, some environmental damage will have most likely occurred somewhere (conveniently out of sight) to generate to electrons deposited in the car overnight.

I reckon there is a correlation between use of NSX and sunlight. I wonder how much of a PV array would be required to give the NSX its morning caffeine boost on a consistent basis. I know a member that was looking at PV installations.....

[Nick Graves]

Good. Far too many cars do the opposite - all of these exhausts sounds are pointless, IMHO.

It's one of the many qualities of the car. I detest fart pipes; all they do is antagonise neighbours and give one a headache on long cruises.

[Nick Graves]

Indeed......but if it is a plug-in hybrid, some environmental damage will have most likely occurred somewhere (conveniently out of sight) to generate to electrons deposited in the car overnight.

The very idea of bogus PIHs* and NSXs being mentioned in the same sentence is an anathema.

Can't we just GIVE Al Gorebimey some money, tell him now f uck off and drop all this AGW nonsense once and for all?



*there is probably some merit in milder hybrids - and especially for the new Fruitmaster bus.

[Lankstarr]

The problem isn't the sports car buyers as such it's the government requirements. High Co2 output will likely attract HUGE taxes making even the very rich think twice. Aston, Bugatti, Pagani, Koenigsegg etc might get away with it but Audi, BMW and most certainly Honda won't!

I'm unsure of what the US or Japan charges for CO2 emissions in terms of tax but if it's just the UK and Europe that are hiking prices then it wont' feature much in the concern other than giving the overall green effect and message. They have made their supercar a hybrid, that's quite a green statement even if it does spew out CO2 like nobody's business at 9000RMP!

AFAIK teh top car tax bracket is £450 p.a. opposed to around half of that for something with reasonable emissions. I'm no expert but I would imagine that most cars that are not diesel fall into this bracket when you're looking at over £40k new. The new road tax costs are still peanuts compared to running costs and depreciation and IMO do not and have not prevented people from spending more than £40k on a car! It's just part of teh running costs now and although it is fairly big in the media it really doesn;t make that much difference to the running costs and I'll bet that 95% of people spending £80k on a car don't even care what the road tax is! [maybe they care but it certainly wouldn't prevent them from buying a car... no alternatives if they want a nice car!]

L*

[markc]

... all they do is antagonise neighbours...

Good, their kids pi$$ me off more :)


I'm unsure of what the US or Japan charges for CO2 emissions in terms of tax but if it's just the UK and Europe that are hiking prices then it wont' feature much in the concern other than giving the overall green effect and message. They have made their supercar a hybrid, that's quite a green statement even if it does spew out CO2 like nobody's business at 9000RMP!

AFAIK teh top car tax bracket is £450 p.a. opposed to around half of that for something with reasonable emissions. I'm no expert but I would imagine that most cars that are not diesel fall into this bracket when you're looking at over £40k new. The new road tax costs are still peanuts compared to running costs and depreciation and IMO do not and have not prevented people from spending more than £40k on a car! It's just part of teh running costs now and although it is fairly big in the media it really doesn;t make that much difference to the running costs and I'll bet that 95% of people spending £80k on a car don't even care what the road tax is! [maybe they care but it certainly wouldn't prevent them from buying a car... no alternatives if they want a nice car!]

L*

Top tax rate is £1000pa, oddly most people only see the cost of filling their car with fuel and taxing it annually as "costs" when in fact depreciation and servicing are usually FAR greater.

I suspect Honda are looking to set out their stall as a manufacturer of environmentally friendly (on the surface at least) sports cars of the future. Like it or not in the medium turn plug in hybrid is the ways to go.... and I'll still be surprised if it make it to the showroom without a turbo motor.

Cheers

Mark

[AR]

and I'll still be surprised if it make it to the showroom without a turbo motor.

Cheers

Mark

Me too as even a Hyundai Genesis can get 345 hp (257 kW) and 295 lb·ft (400 N·m) of torque for circa 28K USD!!!

[NoelWatson]

Me too as even a Hyundai Genesis can get 345 hp (257 kW) and 295 lb·ft (400 N·m) of torque for circa 28K USD!!!

If it is going to have a turbo, why will people buy one over the GT-R?

[AR]

They will if they want a Honda.

[NoelWatson]

They will if they want a Honda.

Realistically, how many people will that be (that have the funds)? The new model must have something that distinguishes it from the competition, the engine would be a good candidate.

[markc]

If it is going to have a turbo, why will people buy one over the GT-R?

Without knowing exact pricing and assuming the badge/brand has equally status (or lack of status) the hybrid tag will make it "modern". Being internal combustion only the GT-R is old tech and I think we're on the cusp of a mass switch to hybrid cars. Also some people, myself included, will always view mid-engine (engine behind driver) as a purer solution to creating a sports car and the less technical/more trendy audience will see it as a more "exotic" machine. I'm guessing the NSX will have a small (sub 2ltr) turbo V6 so engine wise at 1/2 the capacity and in a different location it's not really similar at all.

The GT-R is an exceptional machine for the money but it's a) big and b) err... less than pretty. It's a supercar by any measurable performance stat BUT absolutely not a supercar by design philosophy, styling or of course cost. I call it a cheapskates car in that you get true supercar performance on the cheap, perhaps it would be fairer to call it a thrifty man's car. Do they sell a high percentage in Scotland and Yorkshire? ;) Of course it has 2 occasional rear seats so if you need that capability you can't compare the 2 cars either.

If the next gen GT-R goes turbo + hybrid but remains front engined and with 2+2 seating they're still different enough to appeal to different audiences.

Cheers

Mark

[NSX 2000]

Without knowing exact pricing and assuming the badge/brand has equally status (or lack of status) the hybrid tag will make it "modern". Being internal combustion only the GT-R is old tech and I think we're on the cusp of a mass switch to hybrid cars. Also some people, myself included, will always view mid-engine (engine behind driver) as a purer solution to creating a sports car and the less technical/more trendy audience will see it as a more "exotic" machine. I'm guessing the NSX will have a small (sub 2ltr) turbo V6 so engine wise at 1/2 the capacity and in a different location it's not really similar at all.

The GT-R is an exceptional machine for the money but it's a) big and b) err... less than pretty. It's a supercar by any measurable performance stat BUT absolutely not a supercar by design philosophy, styling or of course cost. I call it a cheapskates car in that you get true supercar performance on the cheap, perhaps it would be fairer to call it a thrifty man's car. Do they sell a high percentage in Scotland and Yorkshire? ;) Of course it has 2 occasional rear seats so if you need that capability you can't compare the 2 cars either.

If the next gen GT-R goes turbo + hybrid but remains front engined and with 2+2 seating they're still different enough to appeal to different audiences.

Cheers

Mark

What Mark said :)

[NoelWatson]

Wi I'm guessing the NSX will have a small (sub 2ltr) turbo V6 so engine wise at 1/2 the capacity and in a different location it's not really similar at all.



I think will be just about acceptable at £40-50k. Anything more, no chance! By making the car turbo, you are taking away some of the sound and throttle response. I don't think it will be special enough to command premium pricing. Also, how many people are going to buy the car because it is a hybrid? At that price point, very few I would guess.

[NSXGB]

Markc +1

Im guessing it will not be near £50k, £75-100k easily.

I think most buyers would not give a stuff whether it's NA or not. Now that the LFA and GTR have proved japanese cars can be 'super', it will surely sell on looks, performance and cost like any other car.

I don't think that ill be interested if it sells well :)

[NoelWatson]

I don't think that ill be interested if it sells well :)


I'm pretty sure you will be OK if it is a 2 litre turbo costing £75-100k!

[AR]

I think it will sell at 911S prices.

It did before and it will again.

[markc]

By making the car turbo, you are taking away some of the sound and throttle response. I don't think it will be special enough to command premium pricing. Also, how many people are going to buy the car because it is a hybrid? At that price point, very few I would guess.

The electric motors (instant torque) could in theory fill any turbo lag gap AND sharpen the throttle response. It becomes a software programming issue as much as a engineering one. Even if Honda managed this brilliantly I can see it being critised for being too synthetic but that's the way things are going.


I'm pretty sure you will be OK if it is a 2 litre turbo costing £75-100k!

Ha ha, exclusive for the wrong reasons again :) I think you're going to have to get used to that sort of spec from Porsche, Ferrari etc in the not to distant future... only add £100K in the case of the red car!

Cheers

Mark

[havoc]

Markc +1

Im guessing it will not be near £50k, £75-100k easily.

I think most buyers would not give a stuff whether it's NA or not. Now that the LFA and GTR have proved japanese cars can be 'super', it will surely sell on looks, performance and cost like any other car.

I'm not so sure on the comment about induction method...people who buy a sports/super-car are either image-oriented (in which case a Honda for Porsche money is unlikely to get a look-in), bragging-rights-oriented (in which case the GT-R will get their cash), or actually care about the drive...and in which case an NA engine WILL be more attractive to many people.

I'm still hoping this has a mid-capacity NA VTEC V6, delivering 300-400bhp.

[NSXGB]

That was sort of my point in a round about way. Unless its cheap the purist market is too small to aim at if it's going to be a success. purist and Honda fan is an even smaller market.


I'm not so sure on the comment about induction method...people who buy a sports/super-car are either image-oriented (in which case a Honda for Porsche money is unlikely to get a look-in), bragging-rights-oriented (in which case the GT-R will get their cash), or actually care about the drive...and in which case an NA engine WILL be more attractive to many people.

I'm still hoping this has a mid-capacity NA VTEC V6, delivering 300-400bhp.

[NoelWatson]

I think you're going to have to get used to that sort of spec from Porsche, Ferrari etc in the not to distant future... only add £100K in the case of the red car!




You may be right, and it will be a shame (IMO) if it goes in that direction. I am really hoping that this new model has the ingredients be a sales success - if it isn't, I don't think Honda will try again.

[NoelWatson]

I
I'm still hoping this has a mid-capacity NA VTEC V6, delivering 300-400bhp.

I am hoping that Honda bods are reading this!!

[AR]

Guys even Lotus had to go F1 once again!

[NoelWatson]

Guys even Lotus had to go F1 once again!

One could argue because they used an off the shelf Toyota engine. Honda can do better!

[AR]

One could argue because they used an off the shelf Toyota engine. Honda can do better!

Agree, but it will drive the price up!

[havoc]

But isn't that the point?

The Evora isn't a supercar, even in -S guise. In size, performance and practicality it's pitched between the Cayman and the 911 - I guess Lotus wanted to put clear air between its product and the benchmarks.

Honda, conversely, have no fear of the 911, having gone toe-to-toe quite happily 20 years ago (and then a few more later when the 993 was launched). They'll pitch this at the £80k bracket (Carrera-S territory?), and once again play on the engineering ingenuity.

[AR]

Do you remember the reviews, it Is the same sort of thing that is happening to the McSupercar. Is taste but is not a Ferrari! Let's hope that it can ccompete on some level!

[markc]

Do you remember the reviews, it Is the same sort of thing that is happening to the McSupercar. Is taste but is not a Ferrari!

A for that very reason I'd pick the Macca over the Fezza everytime :)

[NoelWatson]

Do you remember the reviews, it Is the same sort of thing that is happening to the McSupercar. Is taste but is not a Ferrari! Let's hope that it can ccompete on some level!

I remember reviews of the NSX in the mid-late 90s where they said the engine is still the best you will find south of £100k. It was very special. IMO, a 2 litre (Italian tax special) V6 turbo isn't it, nor an engine that too closely resembles one that belongs in a saloon.

If I were in charge, I would aim for Audi R8 +5% in all areas. Get the product out there, and then consider the hybrid version, the stripped out version etc.

[NSX 2000]

Do you remember the reviews, it Is the same sort of thing that is happening to the McSupercar. Is taste but is not a Ferrari! Let's hope that it can ccompete on some level!


A for that very reason I'd pick the Macca over the Fezza everytime :)

That's Funny, I was watching re runs of Fifth Gear on Turbo over the weekend and they had the one were Tiff and Jason did the very first tv test on the Macca and had a Ferrari to compare it to. They didn't like it, they found it to......... well they didn't like it.

http://fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/supercars/mclaren-mp4-12c-track-test

The problem is people like Tiff and Jason hold the Ferrari in high esteem, Plus Ferrari have been making cars for over 50 years and Macalren 0 years. I don't think McLaren were ever going to get a mass produced supercar right straight away :dunno:

Anyway lets hope Honda can.

[NoelWatson]

The problem is people like Tiff and Jason hold the Ferrari in high esteem, Plus Ferrari have been making cars for over 50 years and Macalren 0 years. I don't think McLaren were ever going to get a mass produced supercar right straight away :dunno:

Anyway lets hope Honda can.


I don't think there was any bias - the Ferrari looked like a hoot to drive - the Macca less so. Assuming Ferraris are now reliable/durable these days - I would take that every time

Didn't Honda get a (relatively) mass produced supercar right first time?

[NSX 2000]

I don't think there was any bias - the Ferrari looked like a hoot to drive - the Macca less so. Assuming Ferraris are now reliable/durable these days - I would take that every time

Didn't Honda get a (relatively) mass produced supercar right first time?

Don't be pedantic Noel, Honda had been building cars for nearley 30 years when they made the NSX. My point is this is McLarens first attempt at a mass produced car (if you can call 6.5 cars a day mass production).

[NoelWatson]

Don't be pedantic Noel, Honda had been building cars for nearley 30 years when they made the NSX. My point is this is McLarens first attempt at a mass produced car (if you can call 6.5 cars a day mass production).


I think their problem was that they benchmarked the 430, and the 458 was a big step forward. That said, and back to my point about turbo engines


http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/RoadTestsOnTheRoad/McLaren-MP4-12C-3.8-V8/257947/

"If you’re listening for the sort of rasp that marks out life with a 458 Italia, or the kind of bellow that makes life with the twin-turbo engine in the new CLS63 AMG so special, you’ll be disappointed. The 12C makes a clean, effective and powerful noise, but when all’s said and done, it’s just a noise."

Also,


"You have to do things its way, not yours. And that’s not always the most satisfying way."

I see that as being Ron's way of doing things, rather than being a limitation of their history of building mass produced cars. I would prefer for Honda to go the 458 way rather than MP4-12C

[markc]

I think their problem was that they benchmarked the 430, and the 458 was a big step forward. That said, and back to my point about turbo engines


http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/RoadTestsOnTheRoad/McLaren-MP4-12C-3.8-V8/257947/

"If you’re listening for the sort of rasp that marks out life with a 458 Italia, or the kind of bellow that makes life with the twin-turbo engine in the new CLS63 AMG so special, you’ll be disappointed. The 12C makes a clean, effective and powerful noise, but when all’s said and done, it’s just a noise."

Also,


"You have to do things its way, not yours. And that’s not always the most satisfying way."

I see that as being Ron's way of doing things, rather than being a limitation of their history of building mass produced cars. I would prefer for Honda to go the 458 way rather than MP4-12C

Many of those first test were conducted on pre-production MP4-12C's, and based on the feedback Mclaren made improvements before cars were delivered to customers. Both the gear selector "paddles" and exhaust note were improved on customer cars for example. The suspension philosophy is VERY different and is I believe the main difference in the cars characters.

I'm probably among the few that don't like the sound the 458 (and 430) before it makes! They're OK when rung out but at low to medium throttle loads they sound blarey/farty to me. Nearly all "flat plane" crankshafts V8 (TVR AJ, V8 Lotus Esprit) sound like that.

I also MUCH prefer the McLaren's cockpit, especially steering wheel arrangement, so my, virtual £170K, is going to Woking rather than Maranello :)

Cheers

Mark

[NoelWatson]

I'm probably among the few that don't like the sound the 458 (and 430) before it makes! They're OK when rung out but at low to medium throttle loads they sound blarey/farty to me. Nearly all "flat plane" crankshafts V8 (TVR AJ, V8 Lotus Esprit) sound like that.


Agreed on this. Wonder how the 355 was different, as that sounded amazing.

[AR]

Agreed on this. Wonder how the 355 was different, as that sounded amazing.

Maybe the displacement had something to do with it?

Don't worry about the sound guys, I am sure something can be done to get it right.

[NoelWatson]

Maybe the displacement had something to do with it?

Don't worry about the sound guys, I am sure something can be done to get it right.


I wonder if increased efficiency means less noise is generated - especially from the exhausts. As for a noise solution - I hope you aren't suggesting speaker in the cabin - as seen in the M5?!

[markc]

I wonder if increased efficiency means less noise is generated - especially from the exhausts.

Noel, you have heard an F1 car right :) They don't do anything that isn't efficient.

A standard F355 sounds much the same. It's nothing to do with capacity, it's all about the phasing of the firing pulses which is down to the blocks V angle, almost always 90 degrees in a V8, and crankshafts crankpin angles. They effectively 2, 4 cylinder engines running slightly out of sync. You can fiddle with the fundamental sound by using complex exhaust "plumbing" which people like Capristo do to great effect :eek:

Cheers

Mark

[NoelWatson]

Noel, you have heard an F1 car right



Indeed, but I recall that there is a relationship between noise and rpm (one thing I remember from my lectures - I think it was to a certain power, but can't remember what it was) - also the F1 is minimally silenced, and has a lot more power - but I take your point.

I need to find a clip of a standard 355 - the ones on Youtube all sound amazing.

[havoc]

"You have to do things its way, not yours. And that’s not always the most satisfying way."

I see that as being Ron's way of doing things, rather than being a limitation of their history of building mass produced cars. I would prefer for Honda to go the 458 way rather than MP4-12C

Agreed...although I fear you may be in for a disappointment!

Ignoring performance, in the flesh I think the MP4 is a more cohesive design than the 458...which is the opposite of the photos, strangely. But based on the reviews I'd go for the 458...sound, feel/feedback, 'poise' and throttle-response are the things that do it for me...and I get the impression the 458 scores more highly on most of those.
(Which is strange...never ever been a tifosi...)

[AR]

Mark, flat plane cranks apart, the size of the engine also makes a difference, think Lawnmower versus MAN truck :-)

[markc]

Mark, flat plane cranks apart, the size of the engine also makes a difference, think Lawnmower versus MAN truck :-)

Not many straight 6 diesel lawnmowers available tho' :)

[havoc]

I suspect THROUGHPUT makes the difference. Compare 1.5l F1 turbo'd V6 vs 1.5l Korean shopping-trolley...or even a 2.x litre Ford V6. Or, more closely, compare a highly-strung 2.0 4-pot (e.g. Cosworth-tuned Ford, XE, F20C...) with a mundane 2.0 4-pot (Civic Type S?)

[Silver Surfer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUFSH...ure=plpp_video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUFSHzT2xuY&list=PL88783DC1BD116CCB&index=1&feature=plpp_video)

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUFSHzT2xuY&list=PL88783DC1BD116CCB&index=1&feature=plpp_video)

[TheSebringOne]

Ummmm, I'm not sure? Having said that I assume with the US being potentially
the largest market, it is more appropriate to them. I like the sound at the
end and I hope they won't fit speakers in the car to give it a great sound?

[NZNick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUFSH...ure=plpp_video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUFSHzT2xuY&list=PL88783DC1BD116CCB&index=1&feature=plpp_video)

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUFSHzT2xuY&list=PL88783DC1BD116CCB&index=1&feature=plpp_video)

Entertaining, funny even, but not really about the car - just the start of a years-long teaser campaign to promote a buzz.
I think that this shows that Honda is going all-out to build this car in significant numbers, hugely more than the existing NSX.
Wonder how much getting these guys in for a series of ads will add to the "sticker" price of each car (as our American friends say).......??

[NSX 2000]

I'm going to be sad and say, I like that add.

To get Sienfield is big coup (IIRC he is big Porche fan) but to get Leno in at the end is massive. This guy is a huge car nut!

To go with an advert like that would suggest to me Honda (Acura) are aiming very high

[NoelWatson]

I think you're going to have to get used to that sort of spec from Porsche, Ferrari etc in the not to distant future... only add £100K in the case of the red car!



But not Lambo

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1072323_lamborghini-rules-out-turbocharging-for-now

[NoelWatson]

This guy is a huge car nut!

He has a lovely old Honda - is it the S6/800?

[havoc]

I'm going to be sad and say, I like that add.

To get Sienfield is big coup (IIRC he is big Porche fan) but to get Leno in at the end is massive. This guy is a huge car nut!

To go with an advert like that would suggest to me Honda (Acura) are aiming very high

Having just watched it I'd have to agree - Seinfeld and Leno in the same advert is a real coup, and will definitely add kudos to the car. It was also offbeat and quirky enough to appeal to my sense of humour...esp. Leno at the end!


But as above I wonder how much this (and the subsequent ads to keep momentum) will cost Acura, per-unit? Probably not a huge amount (a fraction of a % of list price), but still a big investment from a marketing perspective.



Edit: Noel - yes, S800 I think.

[NoelWatson]

I am in agreement with NSXPrime chat

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156817&page=5

"So a $100k+ NSX with similar specs and possibly performance ( no backseat http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif ) is going to pull people ...why again? Even I can't say because of greater MPG with a straight face on this one so help me out."

"Have a distinctive and bad-ass engine/exhaust note... ala F-Car/LFA/CGT, etc."

[Silver Surfer]

10893

10894

Hmmmm....Old in New casing :think:

SS

[havoc]

That steering wheel looks bigger than the original!

Door cards don't look that silly, surprisingly...and the seats look like quite funky lightweight items too.

[Hagasan]

...if you find the other pictures you'll even see NSX calipers....

[havoc]

...if you find the other pictures you'll even see NSX calipers....

Good spot. Look like different carriers though...

(On a side note, have GOT to go and see The Avengers when it's released!)